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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So s few Questions/ideas/methids on gaining accuracy in semi auto pistols with taper crimps.

post what works for you.

I was thinking about head space.
First I would need to accurately measure my headspace. Then would accuracy improve if your CASE length was the same as your headspace say -.002” or so of “wiggle” room.
My thought is the case moves very little? Another thought is neck tension. I know from rifle that after 5-8 reloads the brass is noticeable harder. Both going through the die and trimming.
Does pistol brass workharden as quick and would you ever need to anneal pistol brass?

coated bullets with bullets with lube groves. I know coated bullets are intended to eliminate lube but often I think that with out the lube The bullet is not sealing to its best ability.

Now a bit on accuracy.
years ago there where either guys shooting indoors at 50’ or the cmp/NRA guys shooting service pistol at 25 and 50 yards.
The service pistol target at 25 yards has a 5.5” aiming black or 21moa . On a good day Slow fire at 25 yards I can get sib 4” groups or 13-15 moa

Its funny that most pistol shooters I know will never talk MOA about their pistols. I can see why as the high numbers will shake the nerves of many

A little tid bit
2019 Nationals the top score for a 1911 was 292/300the top 10 1911 scored where 284+/300
 

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MOA is a precision rifle measurement based on 100 yards. Most rifle testing is done with a machine rest or prone. Pistol shooting accuracy(NRA Bullseye) is based on inches at fifty yards. Pistol ammo does stretch and shrink but hardening us usually not an issue with the thin walls on a pistol case and low pressures for most loads( 45 acp). The scores you are referencing are CMP hardball scores which typically run lower than the more precise NRA scores. CMP is iron sight based pistols whereas NRA is primarily scope based. I don't think the MOA measure would scare anyone, its just a different language than is commonly used for the pistol platform.
Kinda like torque and horsepower in the auto world. Both are measures just used differently.
 

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This may not be the best forum for this kind of question. I would be at one of the forums specializing in Precision Pistol games.

Google: "1911, 45ACP, headspace, accuracy"
Look for responses from "JayhawkNavy02" there are a couple of active threads on this subject.

Smiles,
 

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Of course you can apply Minute of ANGLE at any range, it is just a geometrical coincidence and convenience that it works out to about an inch per hundred yards.

I have read of matching chamber length to case length for refining accuracy, but I don't know what its overall contribution is. I suspect it only shows up with very good ammo in a very good gun. And it would take a very very good shooter for it to matter in offhand target shooting. Mechanical accuracy is properly tested in a rest.
 

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It seems you are trying to equate shooting and reloading for accuracy between the pistol world and the long range accuracy rifle world. I think that is like comparing apples to oranges. I load thousands of pistol rounds a year, all I do for them is check velocity and bench rest new bullets if I change manufacturers to check for accuracy. Some bullet brands are more accurate than others, price plays a big part here. Now for long range rifle 600+ yards, oh brother the things I do to a 308 case to squeak out every last bit of accuracy, primer choice, deburring a 45 degree inside angle on the neck, weighing out each empty case to get 20, 40 or 50 that weigh the same, powder choice and weigh each charge with a scale and trickle charger, and the list goes on. I would drive myself crazy if I did that for the 200 rounds of 9mm or .45 I shoot in a session. I don't really think you would notice too much more accuracy out of pistol ammo, especially at shorter distances of pistol shooting. I think it has more to do with the quality of the pistol and the barrel and the way it is set up.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
MOA is a precision rifle measurement based on 100 yards. Most rifle testing is done with a machine rest or prone. Pistol shooting accuracy(NRA Bullseye) is based on inches at fifty yards. Pistol ammo does stretch and shrink but hardening us usually not an issue with the thin walls on a pistol case and low pressures for most loads( 45 acp). The scores you are referencing are CMP hardball scores which typically run lower than the more precise NRA scores. CMP is iron sight based pistols whereas NRA is primarily scope based. I don't think the MOA measure would scare anyone, its just a different language than is commonly used for the pistol platform.
Kinda like torque and horsepower in the auto world. Both are measures just used differently.
Thank you Mr. Derr
I ran the loads suggested when i asked you about the loads in Pistol you built and tested. I ran those loads in a run of the mill S&W 1911
Im not a great shooter but I can tell you that load suggestion went from a loose “in the black “ group to something more resembling a group . Now if I can put those groups in the middle of the target!
i have not a chance to run any “match ammo” through your build though.

The scores where from CMP National Match results from 2019 and they are listed as scores from competitors shooting 1911s
Theres several different match results
I personally still like to use Irons when my eyes agree with me

heres a list of the different matches on the National Match Results
istol Match (click to open)
CMP EIC Pistol Match (click to open)
CMP EIC Service Pistol Jr. Shooters Firing .22 (click to open)
CMP .22 Rimfire EIC Pistol Match (click to open)
President's Pistol Match (click to open)
National Trophy Individual Pistol Match (click to open)
President's-NTI Aggregate (click to open)
Overall Individual Service Pistol (click to open)
National Trophy Pistol Team Match (click to open)
Law Enforcement Trophy Team Match (click to open)
NTI-NTT Individual Aggregate (click to open)
National Trophy Pistol Team Individual (click to open)
Junior President's Pistol Match (.22) (click to open)
Junior Individual Pistol Match (.22) (click to open)
Junior Team Trophy Match (.22) (click to open)
Individual .22 Rimfire Pistol Junior Aggregate (click to open)
Overall Individual Junior Pistol (click to open)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It seems you are trying to equate shooting and reloading for accuracy between the pistol world and the long range accuracy rifle world. I think that is like comparing apples to oranges. I load thousands of pistol rounds a year, all I do for them is check velocity and bench rest new bullets if I change manufacturers to check for accuracy. Some bullet brands are more accurate than others, price plays a big part here. Now for long range rifle 600+ yards, oh brother the things I do to a 308 case to squeak out every last bit of accuracy, primer choice, deburring a 45 degree inside angle on the neck, weighing out each empty case to get 20, 40 or 50 that weigh the same, powder choice and weigh each charge with a scale and trickle charger, and the list goes on. I would drive myself crazy if I did that for the 200 rounds of 9mm or .45 I shoot in a session. I don't really think you would notice too much more accuracy out of pistol ammo, especially at shorter distances of pistol shooting. I think it has more to do with the quality of the pistol and the barrel and the way it is set up.
I dont really see much of a difference in loading for rifle or pistol. I do see its a matter of return on effort.
There are limitations of course.
 

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For the .308 match rounds, I would prepare both sides of the primer pocket &
neck size the case. So much to prepare a rifle case compared to pistol case.
We load thousands of precision rifle cartridges each one the same as the last.
We fire a .308 case 7 times then toss them M1A rifles are hard on cases.

You just cannot equate a rifle loading to a pistol loading they are both unique.
I have yet to trim or anneal a .45acp case much less toss it after 7 firings in an 1911.

A .45 acp is a bucket of powder with a basketball for a bullet. A big chunk O lead
coming at 850fps.

Trying to compare what we do to shoot sub minute of angle out to a 1000 yards
is not even like comparing apples to watermelons. A rifle is a precision tool
a pistol is a means to get to your rifle when you need the advantage.
 

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MOA is a precision rifle measurement based on 100 yards. Most rifle testing is done with a machine rest or prone.
Add a pedestal, None of us use a machine rest for rifle, but prong is also a verification. I used to shoot 1000 yards sling prone on top of years of high power. A lot of folks use a bag for the stock now.

2015-11-27_14-57-44_736.jpg
 

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For the .308 match rounds, I would prepare both sides of the primer pocket &
neck size the case. So much to prepare a rifle case compared to pistol case.
We load thousands of precision rifle cartridges each one the same as the last.
We fire a .308 case 7 times then toss them M1A rifles are hard on cases.
Try uniforming the primer pocket and the flash hole. Since I'm semi auto in both 7.62X51, 308 and both M14 types (including M14s and M1As) and Garands, I always full length resize, trim to length, ream the inside of the case mouth (two types 1 for standard ogives and one for VLD) and chamfer the outside. I then use a Sinclair mandrel for specific neck expansion since I don't crimp. I anneal, so I get a bit more life out of the cases, especially M118.


You just cannot equate a rifle loading to a pistol loading they are both unique.
I have yet to trim or anneal a .45acp case much less toss it after 7 firings in an 1911.
Agreed. I used to handload match ammo separately from practice ammo. But I've never trimmed a case and I sure as heck never anneal pistol brass in 40+ years of doing it. I just use cases for practice until they crack.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
unless your just plinking or hits on a full size silhouette target at 5 yards is all your after reloading for accuracy is the same for pistol or rilfe or muzzle loader. Same goes for the guys I know loading expensive match bullets in their ARs to do red dot mag dumps at 25 yards?
Quality parts, attentive detail, consistent methods the process and amount of step needed are different.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
For the .308 match rounds, I would prepare both sides of the primer pocket &
neck size the case. So much to prepare a rifle case compared to pistol case.
We load thousands of precision rifle cartridges each one the same as the last.
We fire a .308 case 7 times then toss them M1A rifles are hard on cases.

You just cannot equate a rifle loading to a pistol loading they are both unique.
I have yet to trim or anneal a .45acp case much less toss it after 7 firings in an 1911.

A .45 acp is a bucket of powder with a basketball for a bullet. A big chunk O lead
coming at 850fps.

Trying to compare what we do to shoot sub minute of angle out to a 1000 yards
is not even like comparing apples to watermelons. A rifle is a precision tool
a pistol is a means to get to your rifle when you need the advantage.
how about something like this:
1moa rifle is like a X moa pistol.

50' NRA B-2 target aiming black is 7-10 ring 7 ring 3.07" 10 ring is .90" 1 moa at 50' is .1745"

so the 10 ring is 5 moa.

here is the first 2 groups with a load Mr. Derr recommended which really was not carefully assembled. Before that with factory FMJ and some other cast loads I was luck to hold the black.
These groups where shot after doing some pratice with fmj for while to get the feel back. I had not shot pistol other than 5-7 yard silhouette shooting for a longtime. Once I felt I was shooting better.

now I forget which load was which but one was a short line and long line load. I shot a few more groups all with in the same average. I have not zeroed the sights for this load yet but I will soon. I can no longer pick up the black sights using a center hold so I used a six oclock hold. I know more practice and a better zero will tighten groups up but My Questions where basically to get to know what small changes in loads showed improvement.



 

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how about something like this:
1moa rifle is like a X moa pistol.

50' NRA B-2 target aiming black is 7-10 ring 7 ring 3.07" 10 ring is .90" 1 moa at 50' is .1745"

so the 10 ring is 5 moa.
I have no idea why you call it an MOA group.

here is the first 2 groups with a load Mr. Derr recommended which really was not carefully assembled. Before that with factory FMJ and some other cast loads I was luck to hold the black.
These groups where shot after doing some pratice with fmj for while to get the feel back. I had not shot pistol other than 5-7 yard silhouette shooting for a longtime. Once I felt I was shooting better.
OK you caught yourself on the first problem, and that's properly loading ammo.

Here's single draws at 20 yards with one shot per and an occasional double tap. This is over 100 rounds. Only pistol I shoot bullseye with is a Giles gun when I can get my hands on it. Otherwise I always come out of the holster. Yes there are two grunges on this one.


20180824_154515.jpg



now I forget which load was which but one was a short line and long line load. I shot a few more groups all with in the same average. I have not zeroed the sights for this load yet but I will soon. I can no longer pick up the black sights using a center hold so I used a six oclock hold. I know more practice and a better zero will tighten groups up but My Questions where basically to get to know what small changes in loads showed improvement.


OK have to ask, do you dry fire? I do ask for a reason because once you master your trigger control, you get a better idea of what your ammo is doing short of using a ransom rest. In other terms, can you call your shots?
 

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Just a few comments from a bullseye shooter.
Brass shrinks as you use it. It gets shorter after each firing.
For best bullseye accuracy, a lot of shooters use new or once fired quality brass for the 50 yard line. Most claim it does not make a difference. The X ring and 10 ring are the same size at 50 and 25 yards.

Most All good bullseye pistols have an aftermarket barrel, which has precision chamber and throat. Head space is built to barrel maker or customer spec.

By testing your pistol off hand you are testing the shooter. To test ammo, some use a barrel in a fixture. To test the gun and ammo, you need a ransom rest or similar.
It would be the same as shooting 1,000 yards off hand and saying the rifle is no good because you can't hit the target.

I use a pistol grip scope mount and sand bags to test my gun and loads at 50 yards. I have no access to a ransom rest.

On the bullseye forum there is an ammunition section. I read the whole thing. In the end, once you get a gun/ammo that is X ring or 10 ring capable, stop messing around with loading and work on your shooting skill.

I guess what I am saying, it does not matter if I neck turned the 45 brass, or uniformed the flash hole. If I pull the trigger and the gun is pointed at the 7, I am going to get a 7.

Knowing the gun is capable helps in my head which is where most of the competition takes place.

Been shooting bullseye for a long time, I am not great, but I sure enjoy it.

David
 

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In other terms, can you call your shots?
Got to call those shots each & everyone of them.

193-11X at 600 yards, out of a possible 200 points
is when you know you are loading it to the line.

When you do want to know the truth get a Ransom Rest
for your pistol. Screw it down & see just what a pistol
with a bullet designed like a basketball can do,

When you test your match prepared pistol with a RR &
Match rounds, then you can load rounds that will squeek
out every last ounce of accuracy. Try it With new match
rounds like the Remington 185gr Target Master ammo.

I hvve some 7.62mm ammo in a brown box that says
( Not for Combat use ) It has a 168gr Open tip
bullet. My point is this surplus ammo is
Sub Minute ammo in my M24 & M1A NM.

I know the Military did not go to the lengths I did
to load this 7.62mm NATO ammo. Why does it shoot so dam good?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I have no idea why you call it an MOA group.



OK you caught yourself on the first problem, and that's properly loading ammo.

Here's single draws at 20 yards with one shot per and an occasional double tap. This is over 100 rounds. Only pistol I shoot bullseye with is a Giles gun when I can get my hands on it. Otherwise I always come out of the holster. Yes there are two grunges on this one.


View attachment 468881




OK have to ask, do you dry fire? I do ask for a reason because once you master your trigger control, you get a better idea of what your ammo is doing short of using a ransom rest. In other terms, can you call your shots?
Why not use MOA, well other than its a "big" number when your shooting at closer distance with "bigger" groups. 2" group at 50 yards is 4moa . but 2 sounds better than 4.

Dry fire , yes more on rifles.
Before i had my kids i was teying to get into 25/50 yard "service pistol" type matches. i was already shooting cmp/NRA service rifle. Thought it would be fun to add a 1911 for target shooting. i had what i would call a off the shelf colt 1911 i was good enough to keep most of my shots in the black but i will say i used every edge/corner and all space inbetween of that black bulls eye. My children where born and I faded from pistol shooting almost entirely,
Now im drifting back into shooting pistol again. i still like the 25/50 yard format and trying to shoot the X. When so many around me are juzt shooting close and fast and hits on a 16x18 torso are good enough. i do shoot my carry gun and yes its close up and at torso size targets but its not really a "fun" way to shoot.
skill building its fine.

I have about 200 185 grain SWC left from my last casting section. Im going to load those up as i have been. When i load up the next batch i will refine a few things and see.

For rifle i shoot air rifle for practice at home to keep my eyes working and my trigger finger moving.
I dont get to the range often enough to practice rifle these past 5 years so air guns will have to do.
i sold off my air pistols to buy a few M1 garands 15 years or so ago. I would like to get a ransom rest in the future
 

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For best bullseye accuracy, a lot of shooters use new or once fired quality brass for the 50 yard line. Most claim it does not make a difference.
It's what I used to do years ago when I was looking for any fine edge, I just don't bother anymore except for special load ammo (not match).
 

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Got to call those shots each & everyone of them.

193-11X at 600 yards, out of a possible 200 points
is when you know you are loading it to the line.
In my prime high power and 1000 yard days would have been happy to go against you with either my Match grade Devine Tx M1A (all USGI parts), a Navy NM Garand or a M-14NM I occasionally shot. Ammo of choice was either specific lots of M118 or my handloads.

When you do want to know the truth get a Ransom Rest
for your pistol. Screw it down & see just what a pistol
with a bullet designed like a basketball can do,
Never used one, never had a reason to use one even to this day. I know what my ammo does and what my pistols are capable of.

When you test your match prepared pistol with a RR &
Match rounds, then you can load rounds that will squeek
out every last ounce of accuracy. Try it With new match
rounds like the Remington 185gr Target Master ammo.
No reason to for one simple reason, I know my ammo, I know my pistols and most of all I know what I can do, except on bad days and we all have them regardless of pistols and ammo.

I hvve some 7.62mm ammo in a brown box that says
( Not for Combat use ) It has a 168gr Open tip
bullet.
You have Brown Box, either with the 168 SMK or 175 SMKs. Reason it says "not for combat use" is because the ammo isn't sealed the way all other USGI ammo is. the "open tip" is the standard Sierra Metplat used for decades up until the tipped Match Kings.

Best of the Military 7.62 match ammo is certain lots of M118 (the later it got, the worse it got) and the M118 LR used for years now with the 175 SMK bullet.

My point is this surplus ammo is
Sub Minute ammo in my M24 & M1A NM.
Let's see, match graded my Devine in 1976 with USGI parts. There was not great selection of aftermarket parts in those days. The USgi M14NM barrels were great, I had a dozen of them. That rifle shot sub minute just fine especially with my handloads (Lapua D46 bullet). I have you beat, I used an M40A1. Sat in a stepside van i the 1984 Olympics with one. Funniest of all, in the early 80s when the LASD SEB team got 30K of H&K equipment, the rep wanted them to use the PSG. I bought the Devine up with Iron sights and outshot him. They kept their M40s.

Shooting sub minute with an M1A isn't that big of a deal at 100 yards... question is, how you hold up to 600 than 1000. In those days I was shooting against Gary Woods (US Navy Team), Noma McCullough and occasionally Mid Thompkins. Got my rear end waxed a lot, but boy did you learn form these people. Gary later shot and held the smallest group at a 1000 yards for years until a year ago when the record got broken. We're still friends.

I know the Military did not go to the lengths I did
to load this 7.62mm NATO ammo. Why does it shoot so dam good?
Nothing personal, but your knowledge of USGI military match ammo is limited. XM118 was by far the most accurate because of the way Frankford loaded it's run. Early and then selective lots of M118 were better than later because the tooling at Lake City wore out badly, they started mixing batches of bullets and they wouldn't spend the money to redo the tooling. Larry Moore (Distinguished match shooter) was brought in the try and fix the problem. He made sure the bullet lots were loaded separately, which improved later lots of M118, but the tooling was still to far gone to keep the production of M118 going. It was brought back with the 168 SMK in brown boxes in M118 cases (which are very different than standard 308 cases including ball). It then progressed eventually to M118LR. Accuracy is on and off depending on which run we're talking about. Trick is with the original Frankford XM-118 loads? The bullets were deated very differently than Lake city's production.

As far as your accuracy with Brown Box.. the 168 SMK was originally designed for 300 yards. They found out in time it worked well out to 600 yards, but no farther; and it became a very popular bullet for conventional use. Mid Thompkin's in the late 70s/early 80s was pulling M118 bullets out of the case and seating the 168 SMK. It originally was called Mexican Match. And this is where it all started for Brown Box.
 
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