Condition #3

Discussion in '1911 Carry' started by MFM22, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. GTTom

    GTTom Well-Known Member

    114
    Nov 24, 2019
    In the article link posted earlier here is one of the best explanations for the rational behind "Israeli Carry".
    https://www.thearmorylife.com/is-an...Z62Q&utm_content=95971398&utm_source=hs_email

    "Remember that “Israeli Carry” reference? You might wonder, why did the hardened warriors of Israel go to empty chamber carry? Simply because in 1949 they had a low training budget, and had to work with a mishmash of whatever handguns they could get. The safeties of the American 1911 and the Belgian Browning worked opposite from those on the German Walther and all were different from the German Luger, and none of those guns at that time were drop-safe with a round in the chamber. It was the safest way to go. You, as an armed citizen or an armed professional with one issued firearm, don’t have those problems … and hopefully, you have a drop-safe gun. In that situation, you don’t need the empty chamber that will slow you down."
     
  2. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    Nice, but there still wasn't a lot of pistols carried in the early 70s.
     

  3. Macaw1us

    Macaw1us Member

    34
    Aug 10, 2016
    Every time someone ask me why I carry Locked and Loaded I tell them to look up the Father and Son in the Pawn Shop when they were robbed and the Dad didn't have the gun in condition one...
    No round in the chamber..Both were killed that day because the bad guy did have rounds in the chamber.
    In 40 years i have found the manual safety off twice when I checked the gun, but I have never had an accidental discharge. I simple click the safety back on and try to figure out how it happened.
    One time was a dog ear on a new holster, not sure how the other happened. Now Everything goes in Milt Sparks and it hasn't happened in years. I carry a 4" or 5" Wilson Every day.
     
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  4. JohnIreland

    JohnIreland Well-Known Member

    56
    Oct 27, 2019
    Well this will probably set some hair on fire but anyway...I'm not licensed to carry, open or concealed, and so I don't. If things get a little messier in Los Angeles, I will depending on the location, time of day, etc., etc., but I won't have a legal right to. So if a police officer stopped me and saw I had a gun, I would feel better if he found it on Condition 3 than 1. In a street situation, where I had the ability to control my distance to an adversary, I feel I would have the time and distance to go from 3 to 1. Even with one hand (and I practice that).

    At night, going down to the condo garage after 9pm, I tuck my 1911 in my waist band ...in condition 3. I haven't found a holster I like so I don't wear one. And since I don't wear one, I don't practice drawing from one. When I go down to the garage, my shirt is over my gun, and my hand is under my shirt and on the gun. I am always in a state of situational awareness, if something presented itself that made me concerned for my safety, I would take the gun out and put one in the chamber and go to ready 1. If it turned out to be nothing, the safety would go on and the gun would go back into my waist band in condition 1.

    If I was caught off guard, if someone did get me by surprise and was on top of me, my gun would not be my first line of defense, my hands would. Once I resolved that, then my gun would come into play and I would rack a round into the chamber and be ready to pull the trigger. If in the fight, they grabbed my gun, not having one in the chamber would give me the time to take out an attacker using my hands...and then retrieve my gun.

    I dry fire every other day. I work on magazine changes, sight picture, trigger pull, all stationary and while moving, strong hand, weak hand, one hand. As a civilian, drawing my gun is not what I worry about, because if I think I need my gun, its going to already be in my hand. Or at night, on the floor (out of sight) right where my hand can fall onto it. And with an alarm and a dog to give me lots of audio warning.

    Again, we all have to do what we feel works best for us. Sometimes what is the theoretically best answer, isn't always the best. My understanding of the Israeli Condition 3 reason, is that they are in a 360 degree war zone, with terrorists mixed in among civilians. Since they are now using striker fire handguns, they use the empty chamber as a safety against ND. I also saw them demonstrate draw/rack/fire within fractions of a second to being in Condition 1. I don't think my being in Condition 1 would have helped me against the Israeli instructor I was watching.
     
  5. Gmanphx

    Gmanphx Well-Known Member

    138
    Feb 15, 2018
    I have carried 1911's since the mid 1980's and if I have it in my EDC then it is cocked and locked. If you train on way and carry a different way to much can go wrong.
     
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  6. Autonomous

    Autonomous Turgid member

    501
    Jan 14, 2019
    What is your understanding of 'Israel carry'?
     
  7. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    Usually an Uzi in most cases.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  8. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    There are people that will come into stores and just kill people because they don't want witness'. Short segments of what really happened or didn't aren't helpful.
     
  9. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    Nice, at least someone us practice. But be really careful. LAPD has been really funny about carrying dating back to 1980. CHP isn't known for being Welcome to this either.

    It's far trickier these days. You have civilians, you have military - you have law enforcement both on and off duty, etc etc etc and not just terrorists, you have other problems like the "Palestinian" "Protests" riots, etc etc etc. It's a very complex situation from the get go now, especially in high density areas.
     
  10. JohnIreland

    JohnIreland Well-Known Member

    56
    Oct 27, 2019
    And if things get really hairy in Los Angeles, I also have a very nice M1 Carbine and a good supply of magazines. I know there are much newer/better rifles, but this is one that my wife can easily understand and operate. We also have .38 snubbies, which are very good for concealment and up close wet work because you can shove the barrel up against your target and not have the pressure take the gun out of battery...which can happen with an autoload.
     
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  11. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    You do understand that if TSHTF in SoCal, the single most common rifles you're going to be dealing with are AKs to a large degree and ARs. Carbine against an AK? Been there, done that, won't do it again. Carbine is fine under 100 yards. I'd suggest an M1 since CA is obsessed with Magazine capacity and tuning an M1 isn't hard. In the recent past I've gone through over 30 of them. Nope, not looking for business, I only do them for friends these days.

    30-06 and 308 barrels are both fine, in fact I prefer to shoot my friends 7.62 M1NM
     
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  12. rockittsled

    rockittsled Well-Known Member

    487
    Apr 8, 2020
    This is what I was talking about
    https://americanhandgunner.com/our-experts/home-invasion-the-coker-family-incident/
     
  13. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
  14. JohnIreland

    JohnIreland Well-Known Member

    56
    Oct 27, 2019
    I don't expect much of the shooting will be at more than 100 yards and I don't think I'll be part of large scale troop movements. The M1 carbine isn't state of the art, but none of the folks it killed in two wars are going argue it didn't kill them dead enough.
     
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  15. FWoo45

    FWoo45 Well-Known Member

    Jan 13, 2017
    Bad idea to try to rob me when I'm freshly up and cranky. 2 to the chest the face gest the other 58. Another D60 in the pipe. If it fails, toss in another. Then go to Clint's milk crate o mags plan. Plus the fackin dag.

    Though if I'm at work and you give the good boy a cookie, you could probably cut right though all of my safes and have the dog help carry my crap out for you. All of the tools needed are right across the garage. I'd be insulted if they didn't load up the 68 and use it as a getaway vehicle.
     
  16. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    Has nothing to do with large troop movements, has everything to do with people running the streets like they did in the LA riots, except this time armed.
     
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  17. rockittsled

    rockittsled Well-Known Member

    487
    Apr 8, 2020
    And he was handed a revolver (twice), not a 1911, therefore he turned and started shooting with no other motions. He also jumped out of bed leaving the nightstand weapons behind. One of the points I think should be taken is that planning and training dropped away at the screams from his wife. How many people would start running from a dead sleep like that and the thought upon awakening may have been "SHE'S HURT!!" not "BAD GUY!!"

    How many spouses would be capable of racking and handing a 1911 into the middle of a fight that she had already been injured in and would she #1 rack, aim, and then safe it, then hand it in, or #2 just hand it in unsafed #3 something else entirely

    I have been working on aircraft since '80 and my hearing has suffered; therefore I also have to listen more for tone than words. Last year, my wife fell down the stairs and fractured 3 vertebrae and shrieked my name, I got up and ran around the corner into the hallway to find her on the ground. I work shift work, a few hours and a days difference and I would have been upstairs and asleep instead of downstairs and awake and I sometimes mentally think and theorize and plan about "what if?" because of the news coverage of this story since it is local.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
  18. Lamey

    Lamey Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    179
    Dec 19, 2019
    I carry with a trigger lock installed, and the slide assembly completely off and locked in a secure case at a separate location. You know..... to be completely safe.
     
  19. JohnIreland

    JohnIreland Well-Known Member

    56
    Oct 27, 2019
    Well at some point we should be talking about making preemptive strikes.
     
  20. ferretray

    ferretray Member

    52
    Jul 24, 2018
    The safest, most simple manual of arms for the 1911:
    Insert magazine
    Rack the slide
    Engage thumb safety
    No dangerous dicking around undet stress trying to ready the weapon, simply disengage the thumb safety.
     
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