Dan Wesson CQE Shooting Instructor, "I think your 1911 is gonna jam tonight"

Discussion in 'Training' started by B81, Aug 20, 2019.

  1. B81

    B81 Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2018
    I took a CQE class today. The procedure we practiced is fairly standard:
    • Stand about arms length from a paper/cardboard silhouette
    • Block with weak (left) arm by placing hand over ear and using forearm to cover face
    • Strike with strong (right) arm; e.g. throw a punch to the chest, head, or throat
    • Draw pistol and index against rib cage.
    • Shoot either groin or one of the ball joints in the hip.
    In this class, they taught us to hold the gun parallel to the ground with the bottom of the mag against our rib cage. I've seen instructional videos on CQE (e.g. Gunsite Academy) that demonstrate holding the gun more vertical. Our instructor argued that holding it vertical increased the odds of the slide hitting your body and/or your clothing fouling the operation of the hammer and slide. I don't which is "better." Holding the gun flat as instructed seemed to work okay for me.

    Prior to the start of the class, one of the instructors asked me if I was shooing one of my 1911's (which I always do). He expressed concern that it was going to be a problem for tonight's class. He predicted that the hammer was going to get caught in my cover garment, and that I was going to have problems with the grip safety because of the odd shooting grip/stance, etc. It was the typical "1911's suck" rant, but said in a polite tone.

    The guy next to me was shooting a Glock 19. He had trouble with intermittent failures. We think he might have been limp wristing the gun, but we're not sure. There was a another guy who had trouble keeping his gun running. He had a striker gun of some flavor.

    I used my Dan Wesson Valor in 45 acp. The gun ran flawlessly. :)

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    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
    Johniv, Jimhoag, ronin11 and 41 others like this.
  2. Songcatcher

    Songcatcher Nose to the grindstone

    528
    Mar 15, 2018
    Was lunch provided, or did you have to bring your own?

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  3. ReaperCustom45

    ReaperCustom45 Well-Known Member

    641
    Aug 7, 2019
    I think you got the wrong sandwich there, there's no glock in it...
     
  4. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Consider my signature line before replying . . . .

    Dec 4, 2014
    The poor boy prolly couldn't differentiate between a 1911 and a Hi-point. You know, all metal guns look the same . . . .
     
    Legion489, 1911 dawg and B81 like this.
  5. Shorikid

    Shorikid Member

    61
    Aug 14, 2016
    A decent quality 1911, with decent quality magazines will work just fine with a bit of attention to maintain it. Most instructors have a-No first hand knowledge of 1911s, b-Only know about cheaper 1911s, c-were brought up in the wonder Glock age and believe only polymer striker guns can function "in the real world", d-have been fed horror stories about 1911s failing, not knowing that most that comes from surplus guns, knock offs and worn out magazines.

    I know the guns limitations and the need to actually pay attention to the gun and maintenance it regularly. I also love when someone surprises one of the One True Way of the Striker/Polymer group.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
     
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  6. pscipio03

    pscipio03 Fun O' Meter on FULL

    Mar 11, 2013
    Gee, imagine if we still held on to the Vietnam era beliefs that M16s/AR15s are jamomatics that break down constantly.
    Forgetting the fact that the ammo used was made from reconstituted WWII artillery gunpowder with tons of additives that actually acted like acid to the barrel. Oh, and weren't shipped with cleaning kits, nor were grunts taught how to maintain them. So, of course it was the gun's fault.
    Was this instructor of yours going home with James Yeager later on to have dinner and intercourse with him? Because it sounds like they were cut from the same cloth.
     
    limbkiller, gps man and B81 like this.
  7. DPVY

    DPVY Well-Known Member

    390
    Dec 1, 2017
    Between the number of classes you are taking, and your journey in competitive shooting, you are straight putting in work.
    Keep it up, man.

    Also laughed hard at this thread. There are some interesting instructors out there. When I was teaching I prefaced each class with two things; 1st, "if you point a gun at me, I'm going to assume we are in a gunfight" and "there are a hundred ways to skin a cat. I'm just showing you some of the ways that have worked for me".
     
    limbkiller, WC145, 45ACP_ray and 5 others like this.
  8. 1911fanatic

    1911fanatic Well-Known Member

    Nov 27, 2011
    My valor has also never failed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. JNW

    JNW Well-Known Member

    Apr 19, 2017
    Way to go! Last time I renewed my CCW the instructor started the class by reviewing different types of handguns. He showed a pic of a 1911 and referred to it as an antique that was unreliable and a poor choice for self defense. When we started shooting several modern guns wouldn’t run and needed attention. My Dan Wesson 1911 worked flawlessly and I shot a perfect score. The best way to survive a gunfight with my classmates would be to hold still!
    1911s are excellent tools for a number of jobs. Like any tool you have to understand ow it works and maintain it properly.
    Jeff
     
  10. Josh_Putman

    Josh_Putman Well-Known Member

    392
    Jun 17, 2014
    I've heard similar stuff. I had a range day with some guys a few weeks ago, and they were giving me crap about my 1911. They stopped after the first few drills when I was outshooting them.

    Gotta love it.

    Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
     
  11. gaijin

    gaijin Well-Known Member

    May 18, 2015
    Similar experience here.

    CCW "Instructor" had a hard on for 1911's/"jamomatics" and was singing the praises of Glocks.
    This type of crap is really unnecessary in a CCW classroom; discuss the points involving the judicious use of deadly force, awareness, etc.- don't "diss" my choice of firearm.
    This guy was actually hanging crap on 1911's- and their owners,in class.
    (The instructor had a Shooting "academy" I'd never heard of, which means nothing)
    The saying "money talks and BuXXshit walks" comes to mind.....

    At the range, with the shooting portion of class underway, the dufus was walking the line watching the shooting in progress, while making comments to the shooters.

    Now the the shooting requirements are absurdly easy/simple, many still had difficulty because they are not "gun people" and obviously don't practice on any regular basis.
    If I recall the "test" was something like 2-6 shot strings at 3 yds., 10 yds. and it seems the "distance" string was 15 yds. Granted, a valid test for an imagined self defense shooting.

    As he walked behind me and viewed my target, seeing one large hole, he said absolutely nothing.

    I made a point of using a flashy "old school" 1911 to prove a point (and OK, as a nice way to say "eff you pal").

    [​IMG]
     
  12. WC145

    WC145 Every day is Saturday and every night's a party!

    Jan 1, 2013
    I'm no professional shooting instructor but I have a lot of years of military and LE training and experience. I read these threads about classes people are taking and some of them sound like folks aren't getting their money's worth, even when they're free.:roll:


    ETA: My opinion on self defense instruction in general, and firearms self defense instruction in particular, is this - None of this stuff is rocket surgery. Simple is usually fast, effective, and easy to learn. If you can't use what you were "taught" when you leave a class there was a problem with the presentation or the content. Or both.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
  13. Stumpnav

    Stumpnav Member

    71
    Aug 18, 2019
    We have 23 people on our worksite...for fun in the spring, went to the range and did a Tueller drill and an El Presidente...ok it wasn't for fun, there were Whataburger gift cards on the line.
    We had 5 or 6 1911s, a revolver, a Sig, a Beretta 92 and the rest were G-locks.
    We had three malfunctions...strangely enough, all three were the Glocks...
     
  14. MStrahan

    MStrahan Well-Known Member

    213
    Feb 19, 2017
    Just saw your post with the Omni and was thinking nice pistol, this guy has taste. I have an Omni as well. Then I get to this post and see your engraved Baer and the story is nearly the same as mine. Had the pistol below to a training session and one of the head guys starting making fun of my BBQ gun. At the end of the course he apologized as the groups were tighter than most others and it never failed.

    IMG_0386.jpg
     
  15. Legion489

    Legion489 Well-Known Member

    217
    Oct 28, 2011
    Amazingly enough, Glocks blow up! seen four of them at my club, including ROing for a guy who had his Glock blow and then he turns around and throws it at my foot! I was inside when at least that many blew up but I was not eyes on them when they went, but no one seems to talk about THAT! Sure Glock replace most of them, one guy had to pay 1/2 the retail cost of a basic gun but got a LOT of up grades for no fee! When is the last time a 1911 blew up and completely destroyed the gun with factory ammo?
     
    1911fanatic likes this.
  16. JohnK

    JohnK Well-Known Member

    386
    Sep 17, 2016
    So... the instructor bashing my sidearm choice wouldn't really be a concern for me. I was in a class a few years ago when a classmate, who was an instructor somewhere else came to learn, started talking guns with someone in the class and was bashing 1911s. He made an abrasive comment (not about the guns but about the types of people that carry/use the type) and I just looked at him and he responded "sorry" to me because I was running single stack (the only one in the group running single stack). I don't care what his choice is. At the end of the day, I have thousands of rounds through my reliable gun, 3x that in dry reps, and ran my archaic pistol better than he could with his new hotness.

    What bugs me about the instructor referenced in this thread (and I would love to know who it is but may have an idea), is that parallel to the ground technique may work when you are flat-footed on the range. I don't foresee it working well when you are in a grapple on your feet (best case scenario) fighting over that gun, or on your a$$ fighting over it and rolling around, which is what that kind of retention technique is designed for. Parallel to the ground is making that gun much more available and easier to be stripped from you, in my opinion, and making it more difficult to fire an acceptable shot when you arguably don't have as much control.

    If I pin my thumb to my peck in retention - proper retention - it doesn't matter if I am shooting a 442/1911/p30, all of the shots should be consistent at contact distance. In that scenario, I am thinking less about aiming parallel to the ground, and more about getting a shot off without hitting myself.

    I took a class where this was taught and I was rolling around on the ground fighting someone over a pistol with sim rounds (I'm simplifying it). We were gassed at the end of a 10+ hour day and literally fighting in gravel and when I finally had the opportunity and knew, in the twilight, that my legs and hands and such were clear, I took a 3 shot volley. It's eye opening.
     
  17. Greenrunner

    Greenrunner Well-Known Member

    822
    Dec 11, 2017
    The quality of private firearms instruction is all over the map, in part because the military/LE world is fairly opaque. All kinds of charlatans are out there spouting SF and SWAT creds and they don't know squat. Others do but it is easy to wind up dealing with bozos.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019

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