My guess is alot of shops don't do the DLC in house, so the price it costs to have done may not be effective on their balance sheet. Back and forth shipping to the outside company and what it adds to the cost of the firearms ppl may not be willing to pay..? That being said I don't own anything DLC at the moment, but would hate to see it not an option as I would love to have a 1911 in polished DLC. Spray and bake finishes on the 1911, just not for me.

Chris

 

The problem isn't with the finish it's when there is a problem with the finish..if that makes any sense. These guns, (most) are Shipped, or in my case hand delivered to the finish vendor. I have a little more control then places that ship. If there is a problem, and sometimes there is with the finish, then the piece has to be redone. The shop I use re-runs it for me at no additional cost for the finish, but I still have to strip and reprep the part or slide etc.. then deliver it back to them. So, I don't get paid nothing for the extra work to make it right, I have gas, time, and work involved in solving a finish problem.. It's just not cost effective for some folks to offer this if they only do small amounts as well. This is why I build in batches of about 8-10 guns at a time if I had to take one at a time for finish I'd go completely without any compensation on the finish. In house finishes are limited to what the company may have in the way of equipment, I think you'll also see a down turn in the bigger shops as far as hardchrome and such as well, unless willing to pay a premium.. Charcoal blue for instance is more expensive than DLC for instance then add in the shipping. When done right DLC is still a great finish option.. for the cost and durability of the finish.. Prep ends up being 90% of how it turns out. But, the 10% is critical as well.

Just doing small parts in DLC is not cost effective at all, so reworking things on a gun with this finish can also pose delays if anything needs refinished due to upgrades etc.. Time constraints also can come into play.

 

It’s very helpful to see and understand from your point of view. As customers, I think we take too much for granted. Thank you!

 

Sure enough WC now shows their DS gun specs as the slide getting AT.

Very interesting. But as many have noted not all DLC applicators are the same. Just like cerakote, it’s not the finish itself, it’s the quality of the application.

I would suspect they started seeing more and more issues. I know some one posted recently about flaking. I generally prefer their AT and I would assume they prefer to keep the work in house now, also considering the increase in shipping costs.

Will be interesting to see if other big names drop it as well.

 

Would love to know how DLC flakes, if its a metal treatment like park, blue, nitride... and not a coating. Sorry don't want to digress on the OP's original questions though.

Chris

 

It is not a treatment. It doesn't infiltrate the surface metal. It's a Pvd process. So, in essence it is a coating some Pvd finishes can flake, but dlc should not flake unless there is a problem with the formula the finisher is using, or something happened during the process. I have guns in DLC with 4000-5000 round plus carried in kydex with no exterior wear.

PVD=physical vapor deposition. It deposits the material into the surface, so different formulas can be used in this process.

Tin
Chromium nitride
AiTin
TilAin (spelling lol)
Etc.

 

Thanks for that, I just read Ionbonds application notes and the chemistry behind it.

Chris

 

All DLC based on prep you can get varying degrees of color and luster etc..

 

The visually attractive side is the 'thinness' of it where it doesn't look caked on, but provides the high wear properties.

Chris

 

I'm curious Steve, what portion of your work is DLC? I bet it's a bit higher percent than not.

 

95% at least.

 

DLC is probably the best finish you can get on a gun. IMO (stress- imo) This has more to do with Wilson's slide to mediocrity and becoming a "high end production company" than it does anything else. They just want an in house finish with bigger margins they can pay minimum wage to get done. Their master gunsmiths top out at $28/hr for fudge's sake.

WC doesnt give two shits how your gun looks after a few years, and thats all this is.

 

DLC is probably the best finish you can get on a gun. IMO (stress- imo) This has more to do with Wilson's slide to mediocrity and becoming a "high end production company" than it does anything else. They just want an in house finish with bigger margins they can pay minimum wage to get done. Their master gunsmiths top out at $28/hr for fudge's sake.

WC doesnt give two shits how your gun looks after a few years, and thats all this is.

Yes One step closer to Glock or Kiimber...HA!

 

I have never seen DLC flake or chip and I have several pistols in the finish that have kydex holsters and have had a bunch of draws etc from competition and classes - I like that finish . This is interesting to hear.

 

Neither have I. Agree the finish is something unique. I can understand business decisions have to be made or there is no business. Wilson doesn't care what I think though. I'm disappointed with their direction.

 

Im over 25k rounds on a DLC gun and it looks virtually brand new.

 

When I was ordering my MPA DS40, I was conversing with Phil about finishes. He told me they originally went with DLC for their black guns but it was not holding up well at all. So they went to Black Nitride.

They still offer Silver PVD which he said holds up way better than DLC. Nick at Cabot mentioned something similar in a post here a while back.

Ultimately it all depends on the quality of application just like any other finish. Not all DLC is equal.

 

DLC is a type of PVD, so even if nickel is introduced to a PVD process Im not sure how it holds up way better?

If you have data/sources on that Is be all ears for it. My understanding is well applied nDLC PVD is about as durable as it gets? Its even being used on the drive chains of BMW M/RR racing bikes.

 

Some people think all DLCs are the same. They didn't know the level of toughness varies depending on the sp2/sp3 ratio, the process involved (PVD, Arc, S3p, etc.), the hydrogen content, some mixed with titanium nitride.

 

Some people think all DLCs are the same. They didn't know the level of toughness varies depending on the sp2/sp3 ratio and the process involved.

☝

 

Lesson: Stay Away From WC....... Just a shadow of its former self.

 

DLC definitely is one of the best finishes. Execution can be a lot more prep dependent, at least compared to something like cerakote. If prep not done correctly can flake off, but if done correctly is probably the most durable finish from a wear resistance perspective. Lots of DLC guns out there with thousands, if not tens of thousands of draws out there with very minor wear

 

DLC parts can and will normally wear where there is impact, as you have two mating surfaces of the same hardness banging together so to speak. Or if two parts move and rub together. This is why you will often see some internal wear on the slide upper lugs, breach face, bottom lugs, barrel bushing and plug. When you take a recoil plug out of the slide you have to be careful that it doesn't rub the edge of the bushing or both will show the rub mark. Best way to disassemble a dlc pistol is to remove the entire slide before removing the bushing and recoil plug. The hammer hits the firing pin first and some what impedes that contact with the fps, the hammer is also as mentioned a lot harder to start with then the bushing or plug. This is also why DLC and aluminum do not usually get along well. The softer substrate can be much more prone to wear.

 

Or if two parts move and rub together. This is why you will often see some internal wear on the slide hood, breach face, bottom lugs, barrel bushing and plug.

Actually, DLC reduces COF and is good for sliding parts like barrel and barrel bushing, and slide rails. That is if DLC is properly applied and the smoothed rubbing surfaces are indeed smooth.

 

I just got a Wilson combat experior single stack in that I had built fit and finished great, and it seems very accurate. My thoughts are, this is going to be my new competition pistol. We shall see how the finish holds up going in and out of kydex.

 

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/valor-dlc-with-a-premier-package.103527/page-4

So I thought I'd link this thread to a stainless pistol with some high polish DLC to give an Idea of various prep, various appearances in different lighting etc..

I've used the same finisher as NHC since I started the journey with providing DLC. After a long time of dealing with it I can say 3 things to be transparent.

1.) Prep is time consuming
2.) It's a good finish but, not a perfect finish
3.) It's gonna wear inside the gun a little here and there.

I don't want to misrepresent this finish in calling it the perfect handgun finish, as I believe there is no perfect finish, perfect pistol, or perfect people. Mistakes happen, and natural wear happens especially if your someone that shoots hundreds of rounds a week, but I will say under normal use conditions the outsides of these pistols are very hard to wear.

 

That is a beautiful Valor. Steve, thank you for all the experiences you have gone through with some fails and a lot of success. A lot of thinking today is instant, now, in the moment. It takes the grind to achieve successful outcomes. Every company does have to make choices for their outcome. Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

Sounds like a crapshoot.
Seems the cost of any applied finish has gone up faster than the gun. Great advertising for stainless except cost no object showpieces.

 

IDK, I had a quote for a bead blast of $350 on one of mine. I guess there's always Krylon. HA! You get the point if Companies make the choice to not go through the steps for DLC, the remaining companies will certainly raise their prices. At this level of custom I suppose it could be viewed as "Building the Sale" or add on. This can be seen in many areas of the firearms industry.

 

I have two EDC X9’s, an early one in AT and a newer one in DLC, for me, I would prefer AT / Cerakote over nitride, blue, hard chrome or DLC/nDLC because the painted finishes are decently tough and very inexpensive to get refinished. My other Wilson’s are all stainless. I have now turned my attention to guns that don’t cost 3.5 to 4.5 thousand dollars and have bought the Springfield Emissary in all black cerakote, for 1/4 the price of the semi-custom’s, you get one hell of a gun. I have the 5” 9mm and plan to get all 4. If these guns get wear, a refinish is quick and not expensive at all - seems the best way to go for me. All that to say the painted finishes seem to be emerging again as really good alternatives to more expensive fancier metal treatments. All are good and you can’t go wrong but I like the idea that I can get my gun refinished pretty easily - and I could even try it myself with the painted guns.

 

I like the looks of the new paint job on the Emissary. The whole new SA refresh is a marketing study. The finish offerings for me take some research. I like finding a bargain, it appeals to my cheap streak. I have a tendency to overthink about what a gun Should, Would, Could look like. I have a SS Garrison that I enjoy and slowly turning into a custom. Its in the shop now for some love. I have an SFX9 non optic and one aspect of getting it cut is the refinish, a detail that a lot overlook. Now no DLC from Wilson. Do I need DLC? I think so, Its a tough finish. I may be better served to sell it and purchase one already Optic Ready with a DLC slide. I get that you are going through some reflection on "Custom" vs. "Production" and the associated costs with each. Only you can figure out that value to determine what steps you take next. Its different for all of us.

 

One of the most educational threads in a long time. Thanks to all of the SMEs' input.

(SME = Subject Matter Expert)

 

Great informative thread.

 

Have you ever visited? Everyone in Berryville knows each other. Wilson is located about 10 mins from town. Think Cows, Horses, Chickens, and Pigs...Rural. I have it on Good Authority to go visit Guncrafter you need a 4x4. A stream will be forded. Amazon is always hiring. Berryville well that's top dollar! They do have a Walmart and a McDonalds. Heck they even have a Golf course. What is odd the ultra modern looks brand new facility in town is the Energy Co Op. You could blink and think any relatively large city. It looks out of place compared to the small town charm.

 

Try Evolution Armory. He did a slide for me. I highly recommend them

 

5. Is DLC only for people who want and desire somthing unique that separates them from the crowd?

There is nothing unique about it. When I order a new 1911, I get it in whatever miracle finish (DLC, hard chrome, etc) that the builder offers. The only decision I make is whether to get it in HC (silver) or dark (everything else). My latest build from Alchemy is in DLC as I have enough HC and stainless 1911s.