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In the end 1911’s are like cars. In all honesty, a Mercedes isn’t that much better than a Hyundai. It’s all about marketing, preconceived notions and status.

That being said, I’m highly susceptible to most of the above lol. As are many of us Addicts.
I absolutely agree with this, there are lots of less expensive options out there if we can stop looking down our noses at them, I’m the worst at this
 

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Funny to watch people back pedaling after watching the video.
I have a couple friends I cant wait to show them this video.
Its gonna be akin to a big ol cup of shut the hell up.
We are getting together tomorrow. Gonna be a hoot for me.
 
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Your Panerai does not keep good time? That is interesting because I have a few and all keep great time. Serviced a couple so far to get polished back to normal. The TI with the TI bracelet is my favorite. Rolex makes a nice watch and over the years have only had a couple fail. One a hand came off and the other the crown cover came off. What movement does it have? Panerai is serviced here at the Richmont Facility just south of DFW. To service your watch will be at least 1k.
Yeah, I've had it for 15 years or so now, and it has not been serviced. Probably needs it sooner or later and maybe that would help with the accuracy. Like I said though, I don't take any care with it in terms of winding boxes or anything else, and I shoot with it all the time, which i think is not the best for a mechanical watch in general. Anyway, i didn't buy it for the accuracy, my g shock handles that pretty well.
 

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Yeah, I've had it for 15 years or so now, and it has not been serviced. Probably needs it sooner or later and maybe that would help with the accuracy. Like I said though, I don't take any care with it in terms of winding boxes or anything else, and I shoot with it all the time, which i think is not the best for a mechanical watch in general. Anyway, i didn't buy it for the accuracy, my g shock handles that pretty well.
The movement uses oil---as it ages it hardens. On the other hand if you do not care about the accuracy why spend the money except it does come back looking like new.
 

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The movement uses oil---as it ages it hardens. On the other hand if you do not care about the accuracy why spend the money except it does come back looking like new.
Its not that i don't care, I would rather it was more accurate, I'm just not willing to do much to ensure that. If a simple servicing, which the watch likely needs by now anyway, will help than that would be worthwhile. Mine also has some bite marks in it and other assorted proof of life marks.
 

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Funny to watch people back pedaling after watching the video.
I have a couple friends I cant wait to show them this video.
Its gonna be akin to a big ol cup of shut the hell up.
We are getting together tomorrow. Gonna be a hoot for me.
So you are going to show them that RIA makes a great $600 gun or that their 3-4K guns are POS?
 
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So you are going to show them that RIA makes a great $600 gun or that their 3-4K guns are POS?

None of the above!
We all been friends a long time and for us its just smack talk on a subject thats been debated between us before.
Mr Chambers video just gives me some smack talk back up. All in good fun.
They dont do the internet so Ill have plenty of time to bait em up and get em talking crazy then Ill spring this on em.
I thought everybody had buddies they carried on with like that. (real ones)
We all have guns up and down the price spectrum as well as other platforms.
Brand arrogance & what we paid never is a factor, if it was we prolly wouldnt be buddies Im thinkin.
Thats all that was about. Either way... Good Times tomorrow!!! :ROFLMAO:
 

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It's also important to note there is a lot of inconsistency in the tolerances of 1911's, especially mass produced ones.

I bet on average the Rock Islands are great, but it's posible he happned to land an amazing one.
 

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It's also important to note there is a lot of inconsistency in the tolerances of 1911's, especially mass produced ones.

I bet on average the Rock Islands are great, but it's posible he happned to land an amazing one.
I’d wager there is more variation from maker to maker than there is within an individual makers production run.
 

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I’d wager there is more variation from maker to maker than there is within an individual makers production run.
How much money are you willing to lose?

I was having a discussion about extraction the other day with a well known and highly respected smith and we measured extractors. The amount of variation in just six to eight samples of Wilson bulletproof extractors was pretty interesting to see. But I’m sure RIA holds a much tighter standard with all the 1911 they produce. 🤷🏼‍♂️🧐🤔
 

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I’d wager there is more variation from maker to maker than there is within an individual makers production run.
I would generally agree with this, this is especially more true with higher end shops where the standards become much higher.

I seriously doubt the tolerances between various Burton or Chen builds would have more than a 5% tolerance difference between their guns. Without tools, most people wouldn't be able to tell.

I have handled many "semi-custom" guns like Baers and Willsons where the tolerances, such as the slide to frame fit and barrel lockup. Some CQBs were painfully more loose than others.

Although the function may be there, if I am spending 3k+ on a gun, I want to know the consistency is there.

Another more important thing Joe Chambers said before is it is very telling that if you ask many custom builders to build a gun with certain specs, they will flat out tell you they wont take on the project. That post from Joe is somewhere on this form.
 

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Another more important thing Joe Chambers said before is it is very telling that if you ask many custom builders to build a gun with certain specs, they will flat out tell you they wont take on the project. That post from Joe is somewhere on this form.
Let’s talk about this word “specs”.

Who’s spec? Where did the spec originate? Every one now is talking about spec.

Lets use Joe as an example. Is this Joe’s spec? Did Joe get the spec from Marvell? Where did Marvell get the spec? Did this spec originated from a blue print? Who’s blue print? Or was this spec derived from a sample size of one as noted in the beginning of Joe’s video? Did Joe find a spec that worked for his building style, skill level, availability or parts and or machining and tooling availability?

Wilson combat has a spec. NH Customs has a spec. Gun crafters industry has a spec. Joe Chambers has a spec. JMB has a spec. Bunker builds to spec. At this point what is a spec, where did the spec come from, is the spec even relevant, how far can we deviate from that spec, in what areas does the spec even matter?
 

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Specs.
short for spectacular
2200 rounds through my Chambers 1911 single stack delivered a couple of months ago.
min regards to the math, I think Joe had spoken on Patreon and insta giving credit to where it is due, his mentors and peer group. The math don’t lie, and if he is telling you what the range of the spec Is and where it should be, my guess is that if you are outside of those specs your 1911 will still run. Heck my Colt 1951 had better specs than half of the semi full blown customs that have been reviewed. Still all of these tested are a sample of one. Joe says that every time Regardless if you agree w Joe, disagree w Joe, like Joe, dislike whatever….one thing is for certain when the conversation or video or phone call is over, you became smarter about barrel bump, barrel leg fit, a drop in part that you could have done yourself or your ego got in the way and you get hung up on “ yea, my guy is better.
Ok. It’s Ok just breathe. My nephew was gifted a rock island by me for his birthday. I bought it 2 years ago. Used. I paid $295 for it. Great starter 1911 and out to 15 yards he is dropping them into the 10 ring. Sure the brass flies in different directions at times. I would be willing to bet that this is outside the “specs”.
whatever. I know if spent north of 3k or further north of 5k and there was unfitted drop in parts I would be sideways. However. If you have no clue, and never shoot who cares.
If on the other hand you do care, and can suppress your ego spend a month or two on his Patreon page. For a dollar a day you get some good home cooking.
 

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Let’s talk about this word “specs”.

Who’s spec? Where did the spec originate? Every one now is talking about spec.

Lets use Joe as an example. Is this Joe’s spec? Did Joe get the spec from Marvell? Where did Marvell get the spec? Did this spec originated from a blue print? Who’s blue print? Or was this spec derived from a sample size of one as noted in the beginning of Joe’s video? Did Joe find a spec that worked for his building style, skill level, availability or parts and or machining and tooling availability?

Wilson combat has a spec. NH Customs has a spec. Gun crafters industry has a spec. Joe Chambers has a spec. JMB has a spec. Bunker builds to spec. At this point what is a spec, where did the spec come from, is the spec even relevant, how far can we deviate from that spec, in what areas does the spec even matter?
You know this is a really great question and one that doesn't get addressed too often that I have seen. I am neither an engineer nor a smith but what I will say I have learned from listening to Jardine talk & I dont think that there is a production, semi-custom or custom gun that he hasn't taken apart and had a good long look at it, there is a lot of divergence from the original specifications of the gun.

Some variances will come from company's or smiths not paying attention to the tooling wearing and so not cutting to the right specifications and lets face it some companies will have what they consider their acceptable margin of error on those numbers so that they can get the most out of their tooling before spending more money since money is the name of the game.

Other variances are intentional. A company or individual will decide that they know better and will change the specifications, sometimes that doesn't matter, sometimes that may be better and sometimes its worse, for example Baer commanders - he builds them to his specs, completely different from everyone else and the majority of folks that I have spoken too agree that his specifications are not correct & I know a few smiths who have completely redone the guns to make them run properly and flat out refuse to do the work anymore - not throwing Baer under the bus here, just a well know and discussed example on forums.

I think it would be fascinating for truly knowledgeable and talented smiths to discuss the original JMB specifications 140 years later, how do they stand up? Are there improvements and if so what are they? What changes are done today by folks that take the gun out of spec but are to a smith or company's creative desire that do not effect reliability and which changes do affect reliability.

JMB's design and specs have stood the test of time for the most part but with the passage of time and technology I am sure that there must be some improvements out there, wonder if there are newer 1911 patents these days or if folks dont even bother.
 

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Hi,
To my mind, seeing how the 1911 was built by different Makers through the years for the Military Contracts, including for 2 World Wars...

I would assume the JMB/ COLT Blueprint, would be the spec!

How close a commercial part adheres to that spec...

Is another question!
 

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Specs,

I know that some known smith's mentioned here that intentenionally deviate from the original blue brint when building guns. Ie feed ramp angle.

Some see an advantage to one vs the other. Companies will do the same. Be it manufacturing ease or some other reason (tooling wear/cost).

That being said most parts are subjected to the biggest factor of deviation and that is the human factor. Be it pay level, company culture, day of the week, to the number of drinks the operator had the night before will all effect the final product. Close enough will always exist in a production facility.
 

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When you talk about specs on a 1911A1 you have to understand that the guns were designed to be

1) Gauged
2) Interchangeable
3) Produced by unskilled workers with zero hand fitting

If you look at an original, unmolested USGI 1911A1, there is zero fitting other than a light external deburring of parts.
To produce the volume of guns required for WAR, this was essential.

Barrels, bushings, extractors, etc were -dropped in- by an unskilled assembler.

The guns worked 100% in all sorts of field conditions and were accurate enough for combat use. They rarely suffered parts breakage and lasted for decades in service.

How is this possible?


All the parts were gauged to meet a rigid spec and there was a no and go gauge for every machining operation and part.
This ensured that the guns were interchangeable in the field.

Parts that didn't meet the spec were rejected and scrapped. Not sold as surplus as people speculate.
They were destroyed.

The Military engineers developed painstaking specs of every pin, part, and spring on the 1911A1, with blueprints that called out every aspect of every part.

The guns used one type of very specific, rigidly produced ammunition.

So what happened?

Well, capitalism happened.


Over the years, the integrity of the design was lessened by out-of-spec parts, a diversion from the print, and the inability of the manufacturers to maintain the rigorous inspection and rejection of parts.

Companies took a design that was among the most failure-free firearms ever invented and "made it better".
Modern manufacturing methods like casting, MIM, and CNC are amazing but don't always build a better mousetrap.

In addition, ammunition showed up on the marked of the wrong shape, wrong power, and almost always lacking a case cannelure that prevented bullet setback during chambering.

So "Specs" are relative.
 

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Hi,
At one time, I had a link for a vid of a woman working at COLT...

Putting together 1911 pistols.

About the only thing I could see,"hand fit", was the lug on the thumb safety to the sear, and not much time spent on that.

The rest, was bins of parts, going together, to assemble a pistol.

Was actually amazed at how little hand fitting there was for a 100 year old design!
 
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