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Discussion in 'Training' started by Slapshot, Mar 12, 2018.
Try Gunsite, still great.
Absolutely insane and unsafe especially with shooters with limited skill sets. Minute I saw anything like this, I would have walked. Just plain batsh*t crazy.
There’s a lot about carrying a gun that’s dangerous. If you can’t get over some training when the rounds are going one way then the two way range is not for you. Of course after 20 years in the Marines and a bunch of combat time I may be a bit off..
Bounding (aka I'm up he seems me I'm down) is when a squad is prone engaging and every other person jumps up and sprints forward while the guys behind are still shooting. As soon as you get up and start running you say in your head "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down" and upon completion you hit the deck and begin engaging from a prone position. Then the guys who were giving you covering fire do the same. This can go on for as far as your squad leader wants and usually is a few hundred yards. Sounds super duper high speed right? Wrong.
We did this in Infantry School (SOI) where I bet 90% of my squad mates shot worse than the guys in the Vickers class. We are talking 18 year old kids with M16/M4's and M249 SAWS doing this right out of bootcamp and maybe a week or two into SOI.
My point is stuff like this is frankly JV/basic and nothing to get bent out of shape over. Hell, it doesn't even break any of the weapons safety rules. As long as the guys in the class are meeting a minimum standard and it's under supervision I see NO ISSUE WHATSOVER.
I can't believe people are gasping and freaking out about this. You guys would feint if I posted footage from our live fire shoot house.
Well for me it's a risk reward type of thing. I'm not a young man anymore and I've got nothing to prove to anybody. I look around at the indoor range I go to and I see holes in the ceiling, holes in the table, holes in the walls, and I see no reason to stand in front of somebody I don't know while they send bullets down range. I may feel differently when I'm actually there and can see how the drill is done but for now I'll be sitting this one out. Would you want to participate in this drill with people that weren't comfortable doing it?
Absolutely, as long as they are competent.
Yes I would, however I have taken classes with Larry and know that he is a true professional. To live life avoiding things that are dangerous would rule out driving, soda late night Taco Bell runs and a whole bunch of other things that we do everyday. Going to class is about getting out of a comfort zone, to learn things that you didn't know and improve ourselves with what could be a dangerous tool. But I also respect people's ability to say that they will do what they want or don't want.
I didn't want my comments to start a pissing match here, I just don't see the issue with that drill.
And yet every day people are shot and killed by what they thought was an unloaded gun. Mistakes happen. I don’t need to ratchet up the chances of those mistakes.
Perhaps they should have followed the four firearms safety rules...like this drill does. My point being it's no different then shooting next to someone on line. Unless someone deliberately points their weapon at you have no increased risk...but that could happen regardless.
I would think in a class environment with an instructor like LAV with everyone focused on safety and execution of the drill this would not be a deal breaker for me.
You must be looking at something different then me. I see a whole bunch of people in front of the muzzle of the guy next to them.
Not a pissing match at all - I think it's a great discussion and one worth having.
Who judges competency?
Thats impossible or they would be shot. You mean shooting while a persons firing point is in front of your own. Again, unless someone ACTIVELY/INTENTIONALLY points their muzzle at you...you won't get shot. But you run that risk while standing next to each other as well so it's a moot point and I see no justifiable concern. You may not want to do it or be comfortable with, but don't say its more dangerous because reallistically it brings the same risks as shooting next to a stranger on a fixed firing line.
The instructors of that course more than likely. If they have a standard and someone is able to consistently demonstrate that, I see no issue.
Folks they are a few feet in front of each other, it's not like someone is down range next to a target while someone is shooting from 25yds. In that case sure, a pulled shot could go off paper and hit the guy downrange. At the distances this drill is shown unless intentionally targeted there is nothing "extra dangerous" about this drill. It's just not common practice and people are freaking out about it because it's different.
This is pretty much spot on.
I have less heartburn with a drill like this if it is conducted towards the end of a course where instructors have had a chance to make a judgement on each student's competency. Still though, you don't know how somebody will react unless you have been training with them for a considerable time ... which is not the case with these courses. I have seen folks do weird things in training and un-explainable things real-world. Heck, once or twice I have wondered what I was thinking with some of my own actions -- push hard enough and you find that nobody is perfect all of the time ... thus the expression "$hit happens."
Some might think that nobody would dare sign up for a course from LAV or Clint Smith without first having a decent foundation -- think again. People with money and no experience sometimes think they can just walk in and buy many years' worth of hard-won experience by paying for a course and buying expensive gear. Even courses which require previous experience/course attendance in the application approval process don't often know how that student performed unless the student attended a previous course with that instructor. Check out this dude who shows up to a TR class in a high-tech sweat suit and fobus paddle holster. You wanna run that staggered firing line drill next to this guy? No thanks.
I can tell you 100% that there was no one in the class that was anywhere near that. The drill was run on the second day after LAV and KH had ample time to access the skill level of every single shooter in the line. I believe if there was an idiot like that in our course he would have been removed long before that part of the course. If there was someone with that low a skill level in the class I would have opted out of the drill but I am glad to report that was not the case.
I had shot with these people for almost 14 hour+ hours prior to the that drill and if I did not believe that the people I was shooting with were capable of completing the drill without shooting someone I would not have done it. I understand that many people would opt out and I respect that but the reality of the drill is that it pushed us out of our comfort zone not by putting us in more danger than we had been in all day but by changing the setting slightly. It has the illusion of more danger but as sidewaysil80 pointed out you are in almost the identical danger standing on any firing line.
Part of training is pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Clearly YMMV
I get it, and in the spirit of a good conversation I will respectfully say this: I don't agree that this drill only has the "illusion" of more danger. By the picture it appears to be a drill with rearward movement. I have seen a few people trip while moving backwards because of bad footwork, or they just get off balance because they are doing something they don't do every day -- again, $hit happens. If this is a live fire drill, what if somebody in the back row trips while moving backwards and has an AD? I would say that if this happens, the chances of another student being struck are greater than if you were line abreast -- it is just a geometry thing. Thus, the drill has increased danger.
But in the end it is a risk/reward calculation. If the student population has a legitimate need for the experience, then you mitigate the risk as much as is practical and press.
OK I will admit there is some added danger because of movement vs a static firing line but on par with than any other drill involving movement. If you always put the idea that $hit happens and you could be shot by an AD you would never go to a public range or shoot with other people period.
In the end each person has to make their own decision on what they are willing to do during a training session. I would not judge a person who chose not to participate.