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When you say "long range" ... what ranges are you talking about?
 

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Since I live in the woods of northern Michigan, shooting extreme distances is difficult. Both rifles are set up to run 800 yds if needed. I shoot 300 yds at the local range, which involves a bit of wind doping. My current setups are a Rem. 700 in 30'06 and a DPMS G2 18" in .308. The G2 wears a Weaver Tactical 30mm tube 3-15X by 50mm mil-dot. Excellent clarity and repeatability for the money. The Remington has a straight 16X by 50mm, 30mm tube from SWFA. Good clarity and repeatability for the money also.
 

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Haven't shot 'long range' since the 1000 yd. line at Twenty Nine Stumps, and doubt my aging fine motor skills or eyesight are up to the task anymore.

I have two 308s, one being a non-scoped M1A for active agressors @300 yds and in, and the other is a LR-308 16" heavy barrel w/Sig Sauer 3-18 x 44 scope for out to 600 yds. or so. My accuracy requirements are less than 1 MOBG (one minute of Bad Guy)
 

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You might want to head on over to the forum "Sniper's Hide" ... I've been a member there for years and it is the "go to" site for all things long range precision rifle. Amazing body of knowledge there.

click here.
 

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The art of precision rifle shooting is really a universe unto itself. And the deeper you go, the more fascinating and challenging it gets. Here are my thoughts based on, I'd say, "serious dabbling" with it, via training classes and range opportunities out to 700 yards or 1500 yards, and more. I've done just enough of it to fully appreciate just what a challenge it is and how much goes into it.

The most essential piece of "equipment" is you, the shooter. You must absolutely master the fundamentals of shooting: posture, breathing, trigger control, and a semi-automatic rifle is less forgiving than a bolt action. The best way to master these fundamentals is shoot with iron sights at 100 yards, practicing all the elements of good rifle shooting.

Then, when you are ready, you can think about equipment. Many new PR shooters think they have to run out and buy the most expensive rifle they can find and the most powerful scope they can find and they often end up disappointed.

For distances out to 600-800 yards, a quality commercial .308 rifle will do and it doesn't have to cost a bundle. I'd recommend you put more money into your glass than into the rifle, or...the old rule of thumb of paying twice as much for and optic than you do for the rifle is good advice.

The good news is that the optics out there now are really great values and many recommend VORTEX with its great quality and great warranty. And...you do NOT have to get a super powerful scope, that is, you don't need tons of magnification.

The parts of your rifle you will want to pay particularly attention to are the barrel, a match grade barrel is worth it, then the trigger, a smoothing light trigger, etc.

The ammo is another factor. The super serious shooter will delve deeply into the Vodoo of reloading to get the perfect load to sync up with his particular rifle.

So, having said all that, you can have a LOT of fun and learn a lot with a simple rifle build and glass and good commercial match grade ammo, Federal Gold Match, etc.

I've had various precision rifles and my most accurate was an AI in .308 with great glass. It was capable of putting rounds through nearly the same hole at 100 and could crank them out to 800 all day long (as long as I did my job).

The most fun I've had with precision rifles are my semi-autos. I built a .223 precision rifle, an AR with a 20" Match Grade barrel (White Oak Armory), BCM upper and lower, Geissele trigger, Magpul PR stock, sturdy bipod, good muzzle brake, etc. I was able to set a 10" plate moving back and forth consistently at 700 yards, and the glass was a Vortex 5-20.

Here's a very important point..buy your gear used. Over on Sniper's Hide guys are CONSTANTLY buying/selling gear, from rifles, to scopes, to equipment, etc. It's a great way to get into it and get better gear that you might be able to afford otherwise.

Then, of course, you'll have to find a long distance rifle range, which can be a challenge to find. At our training facility we have two long distance ranges, out to 700 yards, and then out to 2500 (obviously this is used mostly by the SOCOM units that train there and by the real ELD type shooters). But at whatever distance you shoot, you'll enjoy it. Shooting steel is the way to go because much past 200 yards and you won't be able to see hits on paper and at much longer distances, spotting scopes won't do much for you. They work fine with steel where you can see splash from bullet impacts, either misses or against steel.

OK, there you go.
 
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I can get sub MOA with the SCAR using my own rolled Federal Gold 168 and 175 gr. Sierra BTHP in front of H4895 powder. The only hinderance is the lack of magnification on my Elcan. If I stuck a 15 or 20 power on it, I bet I could hit steel at 600-800 yards with it. Now that 147 grain Nato stuff is good for plinking , but opens up too much for any long range stuff.
 

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I can get sub MOA with the SCAR using my own rolled Federal Gold 168 and 175 gr. Sierra BTHP in front of H4895 powder. The only hinderance is the lack of magnification on my Elcan. If I stuck a 15 or 20 power on it, I bet I could hit steel at 600-800 yards with it. Now that 147 grain Nato stuff is good for plinking , but opens up too much for any long range stuff.
Well you possibly could and that is fun. At 1k you see the impact then a second later you hear the "tink" of the bullet hitting the plate. :)

There is a huge difference in short range 500 and shorter and long range 1k. For example a BT bullet does not even fully stabilize until 300 yards (call Sierra and ask if you doubt this). This is why 100 and 200 yd BR shooters use flat based bullets exclusively. It is not accurate or reasonable to extrapolate from a 100 yard group to a 500 yard group it does not work that way. When I am working up a load for a barrel I start at 300 then 600 and finally 1k. if a load varies in a shooting string of 10 shots by more than 15 fps that is not acceptable because of vertical dispersion.
 

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Well CRAP this thread was a mistake!! I hate you all going to cost me a lot of money:rage:!!

After this and doing some reading called my friend Speedy Gonzales and Slowpoke Rodriguez is going down to see him with a giant piece of Macassar Ebony I bought years ago (been tempering) to build a Heavy Gun with! Going to get back into formal competitive shooting! CRAP he has already informed me I will be working again in the shop doing what I used to do while I am there. :)

Oh well it is only money but if I do something it is to win. Speedy has several saying's one of which is "2nd Place Is first Place Loser"! We have shot in competition together and I know that is right lol. So this is just the push I needed.
 

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I'm shooting a couple Tikka's, both in 6.5 CM.
Glass is Steiner; one wearing 5-25, the other a 3-15.
My preference is FFP, MIL/MIL glass; these have SCR reticle with .1 MIL adjust.
BUSA Dave is correct in his statements above. A single digit SD is my goal for ELR loads, helping to minimize vertical dispersion-I have enough trouble fighting wind drift.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
The art of precision rifle shooting is really a universe unto itself. And the deeper you go, the more fascinating and challenging it gets. Here are my thoughts based on, I'd say, "serious dabbling" with it, via training classes and range opportunities out to 700 yards or 1500 yards, and more. I've done just enough of it to fully appreciate just what a challenge it is and how much goes into it.

The most essential piece of "equipment" is you, the shooter. You must absolutely master the fundamentals of shooting: posture, breathing, trigger control, and a semi-automatic rifle is less forgiving than a bolt action. The best way to master these fundamentals is shoot with iron sights at 100 yards, practicing all the elements of good rifle shooting.

Then, when you are ready, you can think about equipment. Many new PR shooters think they have to run out and buy the most expensive rifle they can find and the most powerful scope they can find and they often end up disappointed.

For distances out to 600-800 yards, a quality commercial .308 rifle will do and it doesn't have to cost a bundle. I'd recommend you put more money into your glass than into the rifle, or...the old rule of thumb of paying twice as much for and optic than you do for the rifle is good advice.

The good news is that the optics out there now are really great values and many recommend VORTEX with its great quality and great warranty. And...you do NOT have to get a super powerful scope, that is, you don't need tons of magnification.

The parts of your rifle you will want to pay particularly attention to are the barrel, a match grade barrel is worth it, then the trigger, a smoothing light trigger, etc.

The ammo is another factor. The super serious shooter will delve deeply into the Vodoo of reloading to get the perfect load to sync up with his particular rifle.

So, having said all that, you can have a LOT of fun and learn a lot with a simple rifle build and glass and good commercial match grade ammo, Federal Gold Match, etc.

I've had various precision rifles and my most accurate was an AI in .308 with great glass. It was capable of putting rounds through nearly the same hole at 100 and could crank them out to 800 all day long (as long as I did my job).

The most fun I've had with precision rifles are my semi-autos. I built a .223 precision rifle, an AR with a 20" Match Grade barrel (White Oak Armory), BCM upper and lower, Geissele trigger, Magpul PR stock, sturdy bipod, good muzzle brake, etc. I was able to set a 10" plate moving back and forth consistently at 700 yards, and the glass was a Vortex 5-20.

Here's a very important point..buy your gear used. Over on Sniper's Hide guys are CONSTANTLY buying/selling gear, from rifles, to scopes, to equipment, etc. It's a great way to get into it and get better gear that you might be able to afford otherwise.

Then, of course, you'll have to find a long distance rifle range, which can be a challenge to find. At our training facility we have two long distance ranges, out to 700 yards, and then out to 2500 (obviously this is used mostly by the SOCOM units that train there and by the real ELD type shooters). But at whatever distance you shoot, you'll enjoy it. Shooting steel is the way to go because much past 200 yards and you won't be able to see hits on paper and at much longer distances, spotting scopes won't do much for you. They work fine with steel where you can see splash from bullet impacts, either misses or against steel.

OK, there you go.
Great and informative post. This is what I needed. Registered over on sniper's hide, but even after registering I cant post yet. I used to be able to shoot 1 MOA with my old Remington Model 7 in 308 and non-expensive glass, but not getting better than 2 MOA with this rifle that is almost 3 times the price (20" match barrel, Geissele trigger, Viper PST glass); but what you said is true: I have little practice and just because you have an expensive LTR doesnt mean it's just automatically going to shoot well. Kinda wish I had bought a bolt gun, but seeing plenty of people doing better than 1 MOA with AR platforms so I know it's more than doable.
 

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Great and informative post. This is what I needed. Registered over on sniper's hide, but even after registering I cant post yet. I used to be able to shoot 1 MOA with my old Remington Model 7 in 308 and non-expensive glass, but not getting better than 2 MOA with this rifle that is almost 3 times the price (20" match barrel, Geissele trigger, Viper PST glass); but what you said is true: I have little practice and just because you have an expensive LTR doesnt mean it's just automatically going to shoot well. Kinda wish I had bought a bolt gun, but seeing plenty of people doing better than 1 MOA with AR platforms so I know it's more than doable.
It's a really fun challenge, kind of like golf...sometimes you make par, some days you bogie and other days it is all birdies or better. :)
 
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