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Mr & mrs dat go to cabot guns.....

Discussion in 'General 1911 talk' started by DAT85, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. DAT85

    DAT85 BIG OL' BALD HAID ! Supporting Addict

    Aug 26, 2011
    Mr & Mrs DAT go to CABOT GUNS........

    (sub titled: HOW DOES CROW TASTE IN PENNSYLVANIA ?)

    Greetings,

    For those of you who do not know the story of how this started, I will briefly cover the sordid beginnings of this journey.
    A short time ago, over at TOS (the dark place of which we, the banned, speak), a thread was started by a member dealing with the subject of CABOT GUNS. I had heard vague rumblings of the company whose first offerings exceeded 4.5k in price. I had never viewed the website before.
    A link was posted. Like the fool that I am, I went to it.

    I was incensed

    A 4.5k dollar 1911 with Pachmayr grips on it!

    Who do these people think we are? Idiots ?

    I responded just like everybody else did;
    Negatively.

    A mob mentality ensued, everybody taking a swing at the idea a company would start making guns at this price point and thinking that we, the discerning 1911 owners, would buy it.

    An individual joined the thread. It appeared from his thread count that he joined specifically for this thread.
    His name was BRIAN ZINS. ( Who ? )
    He stated in no uncertain terms, that this was the BEST 1911 EVER !!!!! BAR NONE!!!!!
    Collectively, the “hive “said, WHO ARE YOU?
    No empirical data was given to cover the claim.

    No targets, no power point presentation with graphs and charts to PROVE his point. Just a statement.
    So, at that point the wheels fell off of the thread.

    It was turning into a lynch mob with everybody taking their turn at kicking the company and BRIAN ZINS as being a shill for their product when another thread started.

    This one was called…….

    AN INVITATION TO DAT85……….

    Yep, I was called out…….

    An individual named CABOT REP invited me to come to his company and view the way they do business.
    An official tour of the factory.

    Okay, I thought, if I go, and sing the praises of their products, people are going to think I’m a sellout and was bought out to pimp their guns.
    If I go, and take advantage of their hospitality, and then snark their business model, I’m a ****.

    I decided to go and see for myself, what their “dog and pony show” was all about.
    Then, it happened…..

    (queue dramatic music)
    I GOT BANNED!!!!!!!!!!!!

    My long running battle with the mods and orcs at TOS went into meltdown mode.

    I had enough of my threads and posts about CJ’s service being deleted or “disappeared” as it were, and complained about another dealer’s love fest going unimpeded when it came down.

    BANNED:

    REASON: UNSPECIFIED

    DURATION: FOREVER.

    That’s all the screen message said.
    2000+ post, friends, pm’s , all gone.

    And, maybe, the tour of a gun company that I insulted.

    I didn’t call CABOT REP at first. (we had talked after the first invite was made)
    I was hoping that he hadn’t found out and that I could still go.

    Then, MRS DAT being MRS DAT, sensed that I had a “drama” going on.
    She told me to “centralize my fecal matter into a single unit” and call CABOT REP and tell him what was occurring.

    I did.

    I thought he understood what was happening (CABOT REP isn’t a forum dude, he lives in the real world.)
    He didn’t pick up what I was putting down.

    The company’s legal dept. basically told him to walk away (I think).

    We discussed what the ramifications were for a new company to take a chance like this on a person who said some nasty things about the company on a forum and then gets banned by that same forum.

    Would you bring someone like that into YOUR place of business?
    He took a chance……….

    And here’s the story.

    On 10/14/2011,MRS DAT and I walked into the offices of PENN UNITED TECHNOLOGIES. A series of buildings in the Pennsylvania countryside, this is the home of one of America’s leaders in die manufacturing.
    We were greeted by CABOT REP, the president of CABOT GUNS. After having a security check run on both of us and signing the dreaded NDA, we were introduced to the project sales engineer, Steve.
    Steve has been with the company for some time prior to the creation of CABOT GUNS in 2008-2009 so he was chosen to give us the overview on PENN UNITED TECHNOLOGIES.

    As this story deals with CABOT GUNS, I will not go into the details of the tour of that company’s factory facilities, but it is important that you know this company’s history and background in relation to the products that CABOT GUN produces. I would highly suggest that you visit their website to get a better understanding of what CABOT GUNS brings to the field of firearms manufacturing.

    After the extensive tour given to us by Steve, we returned to CABOT REP’S office where the reason for my trip starts. He started by showing us the various cases that will be offered as options with the guns that they sell.

    A couple are not yet being offered, but I will tell you that they are unlike ANY display case that I have ever seen in my years of shooting and firearm sales.
    The detail and finish of these cases equal the guns that they will display.

    Then, the tour of CABOT GUNS began.

    Basically, it looked like the rest of the production facility. That was because it is like the rest of the production facility.
    CNC as well as EDM machines with various multi-axis lathes were everywhere to be seen.
    All of the technology that goes into production of any other product that the parent company builds, along with the attention to detail, is put into CABOT GUNS production.

    We ended up at the “GUN ROOM”, the area where RAY, (a gentleman who appears on the video at CABOT GUNS website) was doing final detail cleaning and inspection on the dozen to two dozen guns that ended the 1st production run of 1911’s.

    Ray’s background with the company ( PENN UNITED TECHNOLOGIES),was in machining, education and training and just about every other area in the company’s structure.

    He had an impressive amount of data collected (by serial number) on the characteristics of each pistol produced to date.
    Extractor tension, extraction patterns as well as test targets with different barrels as well as various loads was just some of the data graphed and reviewed carefully to determine how each pistol performed. Trigger pull figures revealed all the pistols produced ranged in pull no higher than 4.25 lbs


    NOW,LET’S TALK ABOUT THE GUNS………..
    I was able to handle and closely examine 3 models of the CABOT GUNS line.
    The “MR JONES” (named after the founder of P.U.T).This is their top of the line pistol.
    The CGI CLASSIC ( their take on a classic 1911a1 with a higher grade of finish than the standard GI model)
    And the GI CLASSIC ( an isonited finish 1911a1, classic to say the least)


    FEATURES: This area is what I found somewhat confusing. Some of the features on the “MR JONES” are what you would expect to find on an 1911 built in the early ‘90’s.
    I personally hadn’t seen a set of Novak adjustable combat sights on a 1911 in years.
    And, they are 3 dot sights, not tritium.

    I didn’t ask whose idea it was for the sights, nor the full length guide rod which is a standard feature. Previously, while discussing the guns with CABOT REP, he made reference to “focus groups” being used in early stages of the detailing of the guns.

    Another feature unique to the “MR JONES” is the barrel bushing. It is cut to the contour of the slide. I would say this is equal to the bushing that EGW builds as this bushing requires a proprietary wrench to remove.

    The slide stop appears also to be from the early days of 1911 builds. It is a slightly oversized, extended model which looks like an early Wilson design (actually it looks similar to the one on a FIRESTORM 1911 that I had).

    The thumb safety is ambi, apparently of EGW design and or manufacture.

    The grip safety is interesting in that I can’t remember where I have seen this design before. It blends flawlessly into the tang of the frame. Seamless describes the fit of this part.
    I think the design was chosen for its ”flow” as far as appearance is concerned.

    Next, the CGI CLASSIC…..
    A standard 1911a1 45acp in the “classic” sense, the level of finish on this one is light years above any Mil-Spec model on the market that I have seen.
    One thing on the 2 models (MR JONES and CGI Classic) that is truly world class is the bluing.
    I talked with the gentleman/artisan who does the surface polishing on not only the 1911’s the company makes, but industrial pieces such as valves for nuclear reactors.

    DAVE was gracious enough to show me some of his work.

    I will say meeting this guy was one of the highlights of my trip to Pennsylvania as this man is a true artisan.
    The surface finish that he does before the bluing is applied is stunning to say the least.

    He is one of the reasons that my wife and I are VERY impressed with the company.

    Maybe even more than their guns, CABOT GUNS LLC / PENN UNITED TECHNOLOGIES impressed us with their employees’ devotion to producing every part with the highest level of personal attention than I have seen in any other modern business that I visited in the past several years. (in the course of my day job, I have been in a few companies complexes)

    Back to the bluing….

    It looks very much like the royal blue put on Colt high end products in the late 60’s/ earl ‘70’s.
    A patina of quality jumps out from the surface of these guns.

    The standard GI CLASSIC (if a isonited finish 1911a1 can be called standard) is a basic, no frills combat 1911 built with the same level of fit as ALL of the CABOT GUN line has.

    Now, let’s talk about the fit…
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2011
  2. DAT85

    DAT85 BIG OL' BALD HAID ! Supporting Addict

    Aug 26, 2011
    pt 2 continued

    This was a bone of contention in the thread at TOS. The claim made about the tolerances set people off like no other claim CABOT made.
    The frames and slides are all interchangeable, yet they feel like my TRS with almost 4k rds through it.

    Smooth, slick, I really can’t say enough about the how the slide travel felt

    That is the only way to describe the feel when you rack the slide on these guns. I was allowed to take random frames and slides from a pile and fit them together.
    All of them fit as though a smith had worked them over by hand. That is what they refer to as the “CLONE TECHNOLOGY”.

    Now that I have outlined in general the products that I was able to examine ( All of the Rangemaster guns had shipped and the other company guns were on the road with sales reps) I would like to give MY impression of the guns and general opinions as well.

    (YES I KNOW I HAVE LEFT OUT A LOT OF DETAILS BUT IF ANYONE HAS SPECIFIC QUESTIONS OF ME I WILL ADDRESS THEM WITH YOU LATER IN OPEN FORUM OR BY PM, OR REFER YOU TO THE REPS AT CABOT GUNS)

    The subject of MIM in the guns was never really answered to my satisfaction and as a shooter who has had a 1911 go full auto because of a flawed MIM sear, this is a pet peeve of mine.

    My impression is that SOME MIM is used, and it’s of a high quality as this company’s history of alloy and laminate steel products are world class. I wasn’t given a list of which internal parts are made in house, but my feeling is the sear is machined steel as the ones I saw were fully finished with no tell tale MIMPLES that are found on crappy cast parts.

    Speaking of parts, I was told that buyers of CABOT GUNS pistols can specify which barrel maker’s product they want in their gun.
    This goes for sights as well. I asked about 10-8 sights and was given the impression that they will obtain some for testing with their pistols. The president flattered me greatly by asking me questions on the options that they should make available for their clients.

    On the test targets that were on file, I saw names of every barrel maker except Briley.
    ALL had impressive 50 yrd groups in the 1-2” range depending on loads.

    The grips , ahh … yes the grips.

    Another area that set me off on the thread over at TOS was the use of Pachmayr grips on a 4.5k gun.
    Well, I didn’t see a single pair of rubber grips lying around the assembly area!

    The wood grips are made by Ed Strange (WICKED GRIPS). Top shelf, world class wood.

    And this note: Every part on and in a CABOT GUN is 100% AMERICAN MADE. Their core belief in the 1911 is that it is an American icon, therefore no foreign manufactured part is allowed on or in the gun. PERIOD.

    Having said that…….
    IT’S CROW EATING TIME!!!!!

    After initially reading their website back when the thread on TOS was going full tilt, I said a lot of things based on perceptions from past experience as well as a weak web page which they are updating.

    I will admit now, I was wrong. I simply didn’t GET what they were trying with marketing 1911’s in this price range.

    I now think I know what this was about. And I apologized to the president of the company for my attitude. He and his employees didn’t deserve the treatment that I participated in on the other forum.

    He’s is a good, kind , opened minded person who took a chance on our visit.
    His hospitality humbled me.
    How many presidents of a new business would spend 8 hours with a schmuck from a forum to prove his product?

    Not many.

    These people are building this not because they HAVE to, but because they want to build a pistol unlike any other AMERICAN made handgun.
    It’s their vision to build, not ours

    If we don’t like it, we don’t have to buy it.
    But by the same token, who am I to slander a new company trying to do something different?
    Top level technology, unsurpassed quality control standards, premium metal work.

    If you do the math, you will see that there is no way in hell that they are going to make anywhere near enough money to pay for the time, technology, and wages let alone utilities needed to run this operation with a production run of only 200 guns per year.

    Why are they trying this if it isn’t profitable?

    Other than the technological standards that they are trying to establish, I think that something else is in the works for the long run.

    I signed a NDA so I can’t say, but those of you who are in any kind of industry of tech based business know, businesses don’t do things like this without a purpose.
    We are going to be hearing things about this company a LOT in the future, and I get the feeling, a lot of companies are going to have to re-think some things in the way they market their guns.

    These guns are “semi-custom, custom, production pistols” .
    That’s my name for them.
    They are NOT custom by virtue of the production process.
    They are WELL below the numerical quantity of the semi custom builders out there today so they don’t fit that category.

    But they sure as hell aren’t your bro’ in laws Taurus. :nod:

    Now for the 1 million dollar question. ( or is a 4500 dollar question ? )

    Gullswing is a poster who joined this forum because of this thread from TOS, so I will address a question he asked of me in open forum.

    WOULD I BUY ONE OF THESE GUNS?

    Maybe, I have some issues with a couple of things, I have been told I can have one set up the way I like so the options aren’t the problem.

    It’s mainly about the financial considerations in my life in relation to spending this much money on ANY firearm from ANY manufacturer.

    You see boys and girls, DAT85 isn’t a wealthy man.

    I didn’t own a firearm that cost over 1500 bucks until 2006. Just couldn’t afford it until I realized as much money that I was spending on good guns, I could save up and buy NICE guns

    Even though I have shot and handled/fondled guns that cost many times that amount, I am not independently wealthy and have a LOT of reservations about spending that amount of cash on what essentially in my life, is a toy.

    MRS DAT is supportive of my hobby and has said “IT’S YOUR MONEY, IF YOU CAN PAY THE BILLS AND SWING IT,KNOCK YOURSELF OUT”

    NOTE: She was impressed with the guns. When the president of CABOT GUNS asked her what she thought, she said, “You are a bunch of gun nerds with high technology! I love ‘em!”
    But, there’s another thing

    DO I NEED THIS PISTOL?
    ANSWER: NO .

    These pistols are instant collector items by the virtue of quantity ( 50 was the first run and in 2012 no more than 200 will be built total).

    I am not a collector, I am a hobbyist. I love guns. I live and breathe guns.
    But this pistol is beyond my abilities to utilize.
    It’s a waste for me to own one.

    Having said that, my 55th birthday is next year and if I start saving and wheeling and dealing now, who knows?
    Bring on your questions boys and girls, CABOT REP is on my speed dial!

    Regards,
    DAT85
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2011

  3. deadguy

    deadguy Mel Tillis Supporting Addict

    Sep 7, 2011
    Nice job DAT. Thank you.
     
  4. Chris

    Chris YOU ****!!!! Supporting Addict

    Aug 17, 2011
    Nice write up. Thanks for taking the time to do it :thumb:
     
  5. claire

    claire Anger Management Graduate

    394
    Sep 22, 2011
    Kewl...great read. Thank for taking the time to do this.

    Is there going to be a movie. Will Brad and Angie play you and Mrs Dat? Who will play Cabot Rep? or Obama?

    As more information becomes available, I'm sure you'll keep us posted. :tongue:

    Thanks again!

    claire
     
  6. Quack

    Quack it's mmm, mmm good... Staff Member Admin

    Aug 15, 2011
    Thanks for the write up!!!
     
  7. EdS

    EdS Member

    311
    Sep 21, 2011
    Thanks for the kind words DAT...
     
  8. paid4c4

    paid4c4 Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    299
    Sep 26, 2011
    Dat, I've missed some of the beginning to your story and another forum. However I got the jest of your write up about visiting Cabot and changing your mind about their products. Educated people often change their minds when a different set of facts are presented which differ from the facts used to make their initial opinion. That said you've changed your mind and stepped up to say "I made a mistake" good for you the record has been set straight and you're a better man for it.
    Bill
     
  9. deadguy

    deadguy Mel Tillis Supporting Addict

    Sep 7, 2011
    HUGE +1
     
  10. dilespla

    dilespla Never made it to step 12 Supporting Addict

    Oct 12, 2011
    Well that was cool. Glad you got to check everything out. I wonder how big Cabot is going to be in the future?
     
  11. Blayglock

    Blayglock Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    Aug 18, 2011
    I did not realize that these guys were so close to me. I actually just did a trade with a guy who works for Cabot. I traded my mil spec for an AR15. Maybe Ill luck up enough to go.
     
  12. sjd78

    sjd78 Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    191
    Sep 29, 2011
    Good job man! I know its hard sometimes to eat ones words but I respect that you are honest about your visit and impressions.
     
  13. grainfed

    grainfed Active Member

    674
    Aug 22, 2011
    Nice encyclical, Mr. DAT. Wish there was a HD movie to go with it but you're forgiven. When you order those 10 Cabots, you know what serial number I want.......BAN 009!!

    tw
     
  14. Earlsbud

    Earlsbud Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    460
    Aug 28, 2011
    First of all, I like your honest approach. Well written. Secondly, was there any mention of Penn United being involved in the production of the new Ithaca 1911? I have seen this mentioned on at least two different forums.
     
  15. Dumbell2

    Dumbell2 Member

    126
    Sep 7, 2011
    Great write up Dat!
    Thanks for your efforts!
     
  16. zaskar017

    zaskar017 Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    Sep 7, 2011
    You did a nice job on your write-up and all and I was shocking to hear Cabot's offer, but this is the part I don't quite understand. Maybe it was covered in the other thread, I dunno, I didn't read it.

    If you never planned on spending $4K on any pistol, why blast a company for offering a $4K pistol just because you didn't think it was worth it.
    That is like me blasting Ferrari and calling them overpriced, yada yada, when I drive a Saturn and will never be able to afford a Ferrari
     
  17. Sir Guy

    Sir Guy Sharpening Ockham's Razor Supporting Addict

    Aug 20, 2011
    Thanks for the write-up! What I found most intriguing was the interchangeable slide and receiver fit, especially if they're consistently accurate and reliable after doing so.

    Andy
     
  18. Bender

    Bender Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    Aug 15, 2011
    Awesome,.....nothing else you could suppliment your income writing short stories! :rofl:



    Seriously,.....very nice trip report. Thanks for taking the time to set some issues straight about Cabot.
     
  19. DRYHUMOR

    DRYHUMOR Well-Known Member

    Sep 20, 2011
    Thanks DAT, I recall reading the other thread as it was going on...

    I'm glad the humble pie didn't give you indigestion also. :nod:

    From your writup I think we can all see the point of view of Cabot, and what they are trying to accomplish.

    I wouldn't mind holding a few myself, to see what they are all about. Maybe Cabot would send a few out for independant testing????
     
  20. DAT85

    DAT85 BIG OL' BALD HAID ! Supporting Addict

    Aug 26, 2011
    You know,I am still asking myself this question.:bi_polo:

    Why did I let myself get all kinds of goo-goo about what CABOT decided to do?

    Was it because I felt offended about the pachmayr grips being offered on a 4.5k gun.Or a company with no reputation trying to sell a production gun at that price point?

    I can say it had NOTHING to do with the price.Hell,I had considered once,taking money out of my retirement 401k to have a Heirloom Precision 1911 built that probably been MORE than 4.5k.

    Maybe I was too full of myself.
    You know how we sometimes get.Lose your objectivity about things and believe that we are the end all, be all, of enthusiasts of firearms.

    Whatever it was,I learned a lesson about judging without facts.
    Even then,like I said,I don't have to buy something I don't like.
    It doesn't give ME the right to slander people trying to make a living .

    DAT85
     

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