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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I like 'em on a AR but not a handgun?

I was shooting my M&P M2.0 9mm today and then I started shooting terrible. I thought, what in the heck is goin on. I soon discovered the issue. One of my mounting screws had fallen out and the other one was loose. The gun came with a bunch of plates and screws already loaded with blue Loctite. I think I had removed and reinstalled them at some point for some reason if I remember correctly. That's why they backed out.

So, I just ended up removing the optic and I enjoyed shooting it more without. I've never cared for the co-witness tall sights while looking through the optic. I believe this may be my issue. My AR's with red dots have no iron sights and I like it that way. The sights on this gun and another one in 10mm I sold have the same tall sights and I don't like them with a red dot.

Anyone else have this issue besides me?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Another thing is over the years I have spent a great deal of time learning to shoot with both eyes open, point and shoot. Each handgun I've owned has been a little different of course. Some a little more difficult to get in the grove and some very easy. My P365 is very easy to shoot with both eyes open point and shoot. Same with most every 1911.

I think me learning to shoot like this has something to do with it some too. But that's one of the things I really like about a red dot. Easy to see the dot and shoot with both eyes open. But it does dance around while shooting fast and that I'm not so fond of.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There is a learning curve……once you get it, they are awesome.

I remember the early days of rifle red dots. They weren’t easily received
Maybe you are right. Most likely if I get the correct setup for me it would be more enjoyable and with good results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
They certainly aren’t for everyone. My need for readers is driving be toward them. Need glasses to shoot steel sights now
I'm in that boat too. I can see the sights but they are a little fuzzy.

Looking like there are more than a few of us. Need a bigger boat. :sneaky:
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Do you think you would have had a more positive experience if you hadn't had the installation issues with the dot?

If iron sights work better for you, I don't see why you wouldn't keep using them.
I never shot my M&P without the optic until yesterday. The first thing I did after I brought it home was to install the HS507CX2 on it. I've shot maybe 200 rounds tops with the optic mounted before it came loose. And I'm sure it's my fault because I remember taking it off and reinstalling because I wasn't positive that I had the correct plate installed. I did not reapply Loctite and that was my fault and why one of the screws backed out and the other fell out.

I'm just use to shooting with iron sights and the three white dots are very quick to pick up for me. But they are a little fuzzy and the red dot definitely cures that issue making it much easier to aim. But I'm not a target shooter with my handguns. I shoot steel from 5 to 15 yards on average. Sometimes a little more. So I shoot with both eyes open, point and shoot. Even though I'm not concentrating on the sights I'm still aware of them. If that makes any sense. The red dot I like because it does allow me to shoot this way but I'm slower at it. I'm more accurate with the dot but slower. I know, I just need to practice, practice and then practice some more at it. It definitely takes time to get it down and takes patience.

When I took off the optic and shot my M&P M2.0 compact it was what I'm more accustomed to and is how I've been shooting for many years. It was also the first time I shot this gun without the optic mounted. It's just what I'm use to. But that doesn't mean that I can't learn to shoot just as fast and probably even a little more accurately with a red dot. I just need to practice. Lately I've mostly been shooting AR's through a high power scope and not shooting handguns hardly at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
I'm probably going to end up removing my iron sights, buy a mettle mounting plate after I get some more screws.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
The factory white dot tall sights are great, without the optic.
I have a sight pusher already so I'll be removing them soon. But I know that the void is going to bother me. I wonder if there are blanks I can install.
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
If you train enough you can eventually get to the place that you can just point and shoot. It took me a while and a whole bunch of ammo but I eventually got there. Both eyes open too by the way. Once you get it down it's amazing how fast you can get rounds on target. But you really have to spend the time at it. Heck, I've had pistols that I didn't even need sights.

I've often thought about a 1911 Commander naked slide, blacked out with no sights. The voids filled in and dehorned all over and with a DLC coating.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
And you can still shoot the same way with a red dot mounted on top of your slide.

But some people want to complain about how slow they are with the dot or how shaky they are. The dot doesn’t change how you shoot. It just shows you exactly where the bullet is going to hit when the shot goes off though. The dot is not some mythical or magical thing. It just shows what the gun is doing way better then any one can perceive with iron sights. Do you need that level of accuracy or re assurance with every shot? Probably not. But it’s nice to have when you need it.
Correct, I can shoot with both eyes open with a red dot and that's why I have one on one of my 300BO pistols. I was doing that with my M&P but just slower.
I feel confident that I can eventually get as quick as I would like with one on a handgun over time. But that will probably be on a range/race gun in the future.
 
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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
^^ Came across the above video today. Makes sense. I have red dots on a couple of AR's and I really like 'em, a lot!
Super fast on target. But for me it's completely different on a handgun.
It takes me a second or so to acquire it.
But after a while at the range I eventually start to pick up the pace.
I can see me eventually having one on a race gun but just not on my defense handguns. A Masterpiece 9mm is probably in my future. But I'm keeping it simple for my carry guns. I don't need a red dot for self defense or even any sights for that matter. It's draw point and shoot for me. For me it's very important to have handguns that point easily and quickly.
I know that it's easy to get caught up in tricking out a gun. I've done so with more than a few myself. I'm hoping to bring attention to the fact that maybe a red dot isn't the best way to go on your self defense gat. Maybe it is. Just make dang sure that you are super efficient with it. I'm not so I won't be using one on my life saver. Just food for thought friends.
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
@FWoo45, several times, many times actually you've shown your ignorance by your juvenile comments. This is a big boy forum. Grow up or shut up.
 
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Discussion Starter · #85 ·
View attachment 1111132
My comment was simply directed at the fact that Bill Wilson has been very resistant, but finally caved, to offering a dot mount option and he signs Ken’s paychecks. I personally still shoot irons faster than a MRDS but that doesn’t mean I don’t realize that they are the future, and I will keep working with the dot. No, nobody needs a MRDS, hell, by your own words you don’t need sights at all, I do. Why don’t you post up some targets from 25y, cold, without sights? I can see that a dot has the possibilities for improving over irons, if that makes me juvenile…
View attachment 1111133
Like he says in the video. Most if not all manufactures offer optic cuts now because that's what people want. I got pulled into the hype myself and bought a couple of handguns and put red dots on them. And yeah, I was able to put rounds on steel 50 yards and more. But my handguns are carry guns used for self defense not far away targets. The FBI data says that the majority of shootings are from 5 to 7 yards. We all know this already right? I practice mostly by setting up steel targets and paper targets from about 4 to 8 or so yards scattered around. I practice by drawing and shooting as quick as I can while staying on target.

Speaking for myself and no one else a red dot slows me down. I like that I can use the red dot with both eyes open because that's how I train. But it slows me down a bit to acquire it on a handgun. It distracts me I guess because for so many years I've been pointing and shooting not really using my sights. I'm aware of my iron sights but I'm not focused on trying to line them up. I have red dots on some AR's and I shoot them with both eyes open on close targets with ease. Same for the ones with LPVO scopes. But that's a different animal. On a handgun I'm not good enough with one for me to trust myself in a self defense situation under pressure. A rifle goes straight to my shoulder and my cheek to the stock. So it's sitting in the same place every time and the red dot is just.. there. A handgun isn't resting on anything but stuck out in front of me. Sometimes I am able to acquire it instantly but not often enough for me to trust it with my life.

If a red dot works for some of you on your self defense handgun then great. It's not for everyone. It's not for me.

And I don't train shooting at 25 yards (75 feet) with handguns FWoo that's what my AR's are for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
Most of the time a long gun is with me or very close. I'm fortunate that it's like this for me. I do not go to malls or really anywhere there are large crowds of people. I hate crowds with a passion.

I mostly practice with handguns at under 10 yards and I do practice further out also. When I do I'm definitely using my sights.
And yes I agree with the saying "every bullet has a lawyer attached" and this is why everyone should practice as much as possible.

Maybe one day I'll have a red/green dot on a defense handgun but only when I'm 100% proficient with one. So until then it's irons for me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #100 ·
Earlier in the thread I believe I read somewhere that one of the people not enjoying the optics was also trying to cowitness their irons.
The only handguns I've ever shot with a red dot is a M&P M2.0 9mm and 10mm. They both had the tall suppressor height sights. Both of them had Holosuns mounted and the iron sights being so tall were right in the way. It was very distracting. I believe I'd be better off with regular height sights or none at all for that matter while shooting with a red dot.

I suppose I should buy a pistol a mount a red dot on it without sights or conventional height. Then start practicing drawing and acquiring it quickly. I'm old school and I'm use to irons as that's all I've ever shot with for decades. But if a red dot can make me a better shooter then I'm in. It's not going to happen overnight but maybe in time. I've been eying a Sig P322 as I have a boatload of 22lr. Maybe a red or green dot on one would be a good practice piece.
 
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Discussion Starter · #101 ·
No ,,, you're neither ignorant nor juvenile, but your confrontational way (Fudd bullshît) of expressing your valued opinion could use a little work, that is IF your true intention is to contribute rather than push buttons,.
Ignorant and juvenile is debatable...:unsure: lol, more like immature. Seriously though @FWoo45 you are confrontational at the least. It's not too difficult to make your point without coming off like a jerk? This is one of the few forums left that has mostly mature conversation. I like your input most of the time and I don't mind taking a jab every now and then if it's deserving. But sometimes you are a little out of line and should maybe back off a little. Just sayin.
 
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