Shoot them in the groin......

Discussion in 'Training' started by Dub, Sep 20, 2020.

  1. Doc45

    Doc45 Well-Known Member

    Jan 26, 2018
    In 2003 I took a class taught by two adjunct TR instructors, the late Bill Black-at the time commander of Littleton, CO PD SWAT-and Rob Rathburn at the time with Denver PD. A number of the drills were "failure to stop" and making hits in the pelvic girdle were highly stressed. As was pointed out hitting in this area will most often cause fractures and cause the bad actor to drop to the ground. A drill I continue to practice.
     
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  2. Wake27

    Wake27 Active Member

    260
    Oct 16, 2017
    If the target is armored and a lower percentage shot was required, I’d rather go for the head. CNS instakill is much more better than fractured bones and waiting for someone to bleed out.


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  3. Doc45

    Doc45 Well-Known Member

    Jan 26, 2018
    No disagreement there ^ though the intention is to stop the threat asap. I know of one instance where a head shot entered on the top of the forehead about 1 inch above the eyebrow, skirted over the skull and exited just past the hairline. Obviously a better hit in the triangle would've most probably had a different outcome, bad guy survived but was still taken out of the fight (.38spl jhp).

    Gunshots are strange things, never know how it'll end up.
     
  4. B81

    B81 Well-Known Member

    Aug 12, 2018
    They talked a bit about head shots when I was at Gunsite. The bottom line was, there is a very specific region that you have to hit for the shot to be effective. Otherwise, the bullet may just skim across the skull, like @Doc45 said, or damage a region that's not critical, such as the mouth and cheeks. There even parts of the brain that can be damaged and still not cause immediate incapacitation.

    I would post the relavent section of the manual they gave us, but it's ITAR restricted. I guess you just have to go to Gunsite if you want to find out the details. ;)
     
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  5. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    Except one thing, muscle memory helps over come this. We used to shoot low light, no light, strobe light, etc. More you build muscle memory and your skill set. The less you have to worry about shooting high.

    BUT, very good point about folks shooting high.
     
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  6. Wake27

    Wake27 Active Member

    260
    Oct 16, 2017
    No disagreement that nothing is guaranteed so it’s always a game of odds. But without doing any actual research or math, I’m betting the odds of achieving that critical cns hit on a head are probably higher than having the same effect with a shot to the pelvis. Probably of making that shot is another story, but usually if someone leaves something exposed from cover, it’s the head because they’re trying to see what’s going on.


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  7. Wake27

    Wake27 Active Member

    260
    Oct 16, 2017
    If they’re looking over their sights, wouldn’t they hit low?

    I’ve always been taught that people hit low because they’re actually looking at the hands.

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  8. nikerret

    nikerret Well-Known Member

    Mar 2, 2019
    Yep, it’s a lot older than when I started regularly carrying a firearm.
     
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  9. Greenrunner

    Greenrunner Well-Known Member

    963
    Dec 11, 2017
    I would think you have to be pretty close for the hands of your target, which also presumably are raised and holding a weapon, to cause you to depress your weapon.

    But if you look over your sights, you may have a tendancy to raise that front sight to keep it along your line of sight. Same reason people shoot high at night.

    YMMV.
     
  10. Adam13

    Adam13 Well-Known Member

    233
    Jun 27, 2020
    Exactly!

    The idea being that if you hit the pelvis or hip. They will not be able to maintain an upright posture.
    But, I’m not sure all calibers should carry the same strategy.


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  11. EvolutionArmory

    EvolutionArmory Well-Known Member

    Sep 9, 2011
    Cobra Kai was right all along. :)
    035228B2-0660-4A5E-8930-DAEEF84BE3C7.jpeg
     
  12. das_dude

    das_dude “Careful man, there’s a beverage here!” — The Dude Supporting Addict

    444
    Nov 2, 2015
    Shoot them in the CNS. If not, whatever presents itself. But the CNS is the critical hit to make if'n you don't want to get shot.

    I personally know two rangers shot in the pelvic girdle with 7.62x39 in Mogadishu. One got shot from the front, the other from the side. Neither bled out, both continued to fight for another 8hrs. It just made them real mad.
     
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  13. Bradd_D

    Bradd_D Well-Known Member

    573
    Apr 8, 2019
    95696294_10220099224483199_3143361876746829824_n.jpg
     
  14. das_dude

    das_dude “Careful man, there’s a beverage here!” — The Dude Supporting Addict

    444
    Nov 2, 2015
    The truth!
     
  15. OldCuz

    OldCuz Raleigh NC Supporting Addict

    Mar 22, 2020
    So, I've shot off my pecker a few times...
     
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  16. das_dude

    das_dude “Careful man, there’s a beverage here!” — The Dude Supporting Addict

    444
    Nov 2, 2015
    The one night all of those bone head moves finally pays off!
     
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  17. Raylan Givens

    Raylan Givens Never Forget

    Aug 18, 2015
    Rangers aren't human... so your argument is invalid
     
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  18. Fatbob Frank

    Fatbob Frank Supporting Addict Supporting Addict

    Feb 5, 2014
    My wife always aims low too...
     
  19. Uncle Bob

    Uncle Bob Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Sep 22, 2017
    BHPD friend of mine took a 357 mag point blank under his body armor (pelvis). Didn't know he'd been shot and was back on duty months later.

    Deal with someone on meth or PCP is worse, you want to shut them down asap. Pelvis hit won't do it. I have experience with someone on PCP, they don't feel pain.
     
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  20. Jimhoag

    Jimhoag In Kentucky

    Jun 14, 2013
    We had a police officer shot in the groin. Severing the femoral artery. Died fr blood loss. Perp used 25.beretta

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