Something Fishy Going On Here

Discussion in 'Collector's Corner' started by 41ManGun, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. 41ManGun

    41ManGun New Member

    21
    Dec 12, 2018
    Hello from the great state of Alabama!
    I purchased this as a 1911A1 and discovered I had not looked closely enough to the frame markings. It has correct markings for a Union Switch and Signal frame but the serial number looks odd and is out of range as US&S started at 1041405. As you can see mine is in the 900,000 range. Another marking that is odd is the M1911A1 US ARMY. It is a different font that what almost all other 1911A1's have.
    The only thing that appears correct is the US Property stamp.
    However, RCD inside a circle is correct for Robert C. Downie as the Army Inspector for US&S for the entire run.
    The slide is a WW2 Colt with a "P" proof mark just in front of the rear sight
    I believe this receiver is a fake but am puzzled as to why someone would go to the trouble to fake it? Don't worry, I did not pay a premium or near what it would have been worth if it were a true US&S frame.
    Anyone have any idea as to what I have? I'll be happy to provide more photos if need be.
    Thanks in advance. Qbh6DrmSS+izG0H7fiQezQ.jpg %7bXmaECSbyg43vgHT91%w.jpg
     
  2. TexasRedneck

    TexasRedneck Well-Known Member

    896
    Sep 19, 2011
    959202 shows to be in the range for Remington-Rand, 1942-43. It also says that Colt duplicated those numbers......
     
    xerts1191 likes this.

  3. Wheels No More

    Wheels No More Long gone

    May 12, 2015
    I have no answers to your questions but I do have a welcome to the forum.
    Some of the fine folks here have way more knowledge than me and I'll let them handle that.
    WELCOME aboard the crazy train....
    when-my-ex-call-crazy-train.png
     
    BR549er and Mike Meints like this.
  4. BR549er

    BR549er Well-Known Member

    760
    Jul 6, 2018
    Welcome from SWMO!

    Wheels,.I.considered Crazy Train for the ex's ringtone, but went with Frank Zappa's Why Does it Hurt when I Pee instead...
     
  5. boatdoc

    boatdoc Well-Known Member

    Aug 3, 2015
    no clue

    but welcome to the show
     
  6. Lakeman45

    Lakeman45 Active Member

    319
    May 15, 2017
    Fake markings. The moron that did this got one of the old incorrect serial number lists that shows US&S numbers starting at 958101. Serial number is fake and RCD is fake.

    Altered serial number = illegal. Get your money back.
     
  7. 41ManGun

    41ManGun New Member

    21
    Dec 12, 2018
    I appreciate your reply, however I don’t believe it is illegal to own. The serial number ranges within the Remington Rand contract. It does not appear as if the serial number has been altered. And as you said, the RCD is fake only makes the marking (RCD) a forgery.
    I’m not a FFL but do have a good deal of knowledge in illegal firearms. Passing it off as a US&S and it is really a RR falls in “caveat emptor”.
    Unfortunately I have no way to get my money back.
    Please feel free to correct anything I have said.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. Lakeman45

    Lakeman45 Active Member

    319
    May 15, 2017
    It doesn't matter if it is a Remington Rand serial number. The original manufacturer's serial number has been removed and a new one put on. According to federal law the original serial number has been altered. You can put any marking you like on it, RCD, FJA, GHD, etc., but you cannot alter the serial number legally.

    Just providing the correct information, but believe what you want.

    Inform the person that you bought it from that you will be contacting the BATF about his selling a firearm with an altered serial number, and give him the choice to purchase it back or explain it to the BATF.
     
  9. john_anch_ak

    john_anch_ak Well-Known Member Supporting Addict

    Mar 7, 2017
    I personally don't have a clue. But welcome to the forum from Alaska! 2011-08-03_18-51-40_540.jpg
     
  10. 41ManGun

    41ManGun New Member

    21
    Dec 12, 2018
    I don’t mean to sound contrary but how do you know the serial number has been altered? I frankly cannot tell so I’m asking someone who knows much more than I do about these things. I’ve looked through a 10x loupe and cannot see any other markings that would denote any alterations.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  11. TexasRedneck

    TexasRedneck Well-Known Member

    896
    Sep 19, 2011
    I sincerely doubt that the number has been altered/reworked. You'd see pretty obvious evidence of that.
     
  12. Lakeman45

    Lakeman45 Active Member

    319
    May 15, 2017
    That is exactly why the fakers are successful in passing these fake off. People also buy fake Rolex watches because they don't know what a real one looks like or what to look for.

    You have to know what an original looks like before you can recognize a fake, and that looks nothing like original markings, down to the fake P proof on the left side. The marking is too broad, and the ends are rounded where the cutter ends. It is just like a dentist's drill, and there is no way to prevent the letters and numbers from being rounded where the cutter stops.

    The RCD marking on an original is very light with razor thin lines where that one has very broad lines just like the right side markings.

    I would suggest doing an internet search for an original US&S with good closeup photos of the right side markings.

    I have no reason to mislead you about the pistol, and just trying to be of assistance.

    § 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
    No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
     
    william adams and bobo3020 like this.
  13. 41ManGun

    41ManGun New Member

    21
    Dec 12, 2018
    I never meant for my comments to make you feel attacked. Your motives are pure and I do appreciate your help. As I look at US&S on the web I can see what you are talking about.
    You have been extremely helpful and trust that you and I continue to communicate and educate for years to come.
    Please accept my sincerest apology for anything I have written that offended you or your intelligence.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. bobo3020

    bobo3020 Well-Known Member

    696
    Jul 31, 2014
    610369AD-91CC-4F9C-9697-14774F53E62C.png
    Full disclosure I’m not knowledgeable in this area, but darn good googler.

    I can definitely see a difference in serial number fabrication vs an example I found.
     
  15. Lakeman45

    Lakeman45 Active Member

    319
    May 15, 2017
    I never felt attacked. I just knew it was a fake, but was having a hard time convincing you.
     
  16. 41ManGun

    41ManGun New Member

    21
    Dec 12, 2018
    I’m glad you stuck in there for me!
    I’m going to contact the Gun Show promoter and the fella himself to get my money back.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. switchback

    switchback Well-Known Member

    Jun 2, 2014
    Welcome to the forum. Lakeman45 provides solid, correct info, as I've noticed since he arrived here @Addicts. Good luck
     
  18. Zaugau

    Zaugau Well-Known Member

    304
    Mar 26, 2017
    Also the scalloped cut behind the trigger guard near the serial # looks rounded a bit as if it has been ground down. Compare to the sharper edge of the scalloped cutcut the opposite side.
     
    bobo3020 likes this.
  19. bobo3020

    bobo3020 Well-Known Member

    696
    Jul 31, 2014
    Agreed. These are all good signs to look for that help everyone here and hopefully OP as well!
     
  20. 41ManGun

    41ManGun New Member

    21
    Dec 12, 2018
    Just noticed the dots are in front of the U & S instead of behind. I certainly got the fever when I purchased this gun not to notice something as blatant as that.


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