What is it about minor-caliber rounds and ramped barrels that make them preferable to standard barrels?

1569 Views 32 Replies 16 Participants Last post by EvolutionArmory, 4 mo ago

Steve in Allentown

Discussion Starter · 4 mo ago

This question came up in another thread but is so technical in nature that I thought it should be in a dedicated thread focused specifically on this question.

Here are the relevant posts from the other thread to show how the discussion originally developed.

Steve in Allentown said:
Ramped barrels were introduced when competitors were overloading their .38 Supers to make major and blowing up their pistols resulting in lots of unburned powder and bits of brass flying back into their faces. The term "Super Face" was coined for their condition. The cry went out for barrel manufacturers to make ramped barrels to eliminate Super Face which they were happy to do. Ramped barrels became the new "in thing" for all the cool kids. It wasn't long before pistol manufacturers figured out that ramped barrels lowered their costs and increased their profit margins.

Steve in Allentown said:
Ramped barrels . . . require a lot more work to feed almost as well as the original barrel and frame feed ramp design.

Steve in Allentown said:
Are ramped barrels safer than non-ramped barrels? As long as you stay within SAAMI spec for chamber pressure there's no difference. Colt has never used ramped barrels for any of their chamberings (e.g. 9mm, .38 Super, 9x23, 10mm) and I don't recall any reports of their pistols blowing up.

Steve in Allentown said:
Do ramped barrels feed better than standard barrels? Absolutely not.

pistolwretch said:
I'll disagree just a bit here.

With 45acp there is no feeding advantage. But with 9, 38S or 10 there is.

With all of that as background what we're trying to answer here is the question of whether or not ramped barrels in any caliber will feed better than standard configuration barrels. What is it about a ramped barrel that makes it feed a wider array of ammo types more smoothly than non-ramped barrels?

No need to post that you have ramped barreled 1911s that feed everything you've thrown at it. We all know they feed to one extent or another.

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Steve in Allentown

Discussion Starter · #2 · 4 mo ago

One of the factors to reliable feeding is the angle of the ramp. We all know that the standard .45 frame ramp should be 31½° for optimal feeding. Ramped barrels are a mystery in this regard. A well regarded 1911 'smith and I had a private conversation about this and he said he uses a 20° angle for his ramped barrel 9mm builds. I was skeptical but he insisted it worked as well as the 31½° of a standard frame ramp. I didn't ask if his angle worked with multiple ammo types.

Steve in Allentown

Discussion Starter · #3 · 4 mo ago

I think most of the prevailing belief that ramped barrels are better than traditional barrels and ramped frames developed from the days of Super Face that I mentioned above. If all the big name competitors like Rob Leatham are using ramped barrels, I should get one so I can shoot as well as they do.

I think Ned summed it up best:

Ned Christiansen said:
You see this in every industry, manufacturers put a product on the market because the market has called for it. They are in business to make money and if they offer this thing there is a demand for, it's a sure thing it will sell.

It doesn't even have to work reliably. To a certain segment of the market, it doesn't have to work as advertised, it just has to look as advertised. It has to seem as advertised.

Colt seems to be the only manufacturer that does not offer a ramped barrel for the minor calibers (anything smaller than a .45). In fact, none of the other manufacturers even offer a standard barrel configuration for the minor calibers. This is most likely due to the fact that it saves on manufacturing costs since all the frames can be cut to accept ramped barrels right up front.

The question remains. Will the minor calibers feed at least as well if not better than ramped barrels if they're used in non-ramped barrels?

I suspect most of the current crop of 1911 'smiths have only ever seen and worked with ramped barrels for the minor calibers which may explain their commitment to ramped barrels.

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Squidsix

· #4 · 4 mo ago

It does have one advantage that I can see right off the bat:
On alloy framed guns, shooting hollow point ammunition, one can easily beat up the frame under the barrel in a non-ramped setup.
I remember people inserting steel ramp segments and pinning them in place.

vmax606

· #5 · 4 mo ago

Steve in Allentown said:
I think most of the prevailing belief that ramped barrels are better than traditional barrels and ramped frames developed from the days of Super Face that I mentioned above. If all the big name competitors like Rob Leatham are using ramped barrels, I should get one so I can shoot as well as they do.

I got a ramped barrel NOT because so I can shoot as well as they do, but to keep the brass from blowing up in my face, my first 38 Super pistol (Colt) came very close to doing that.

TheCollector

· #6 · 4 mo ago

With little knowledge of ramp angles for different calibers in either the frame ramp or ramped barrel. I'll ask this seemingly ignorant question. Why would the ideal angle (for any given caliber) of a frame ramp or a ramped barrel not be the same?

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philk

· #7 · 4 mo ago

Squidsix said:
It does have one advantage that I can see right off the bat:
On alloy framed guns, shooting hollow point ammunition, one can easily beat up the frame under the barrel in a non-ramped setup.
I remember people inserting steel ramp segments and pinning them in place.

Always thought most of that damage came from the standard design Colt followers pecking away at it more than the bullet nose hitting it.🤷🏻‍♂️

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philk

· #8 · 4 mo ago

My LW Commander came back from WC in the ‘80s with the feed ramp polished and seems to work fine although I do have an insert to install if need be. Then too it just doesn’t get shot much anymore either.

DRD

· #9 · 4 mo ago

I'll ask a question that just may prove my ignorance of the subject. If a bullet is picked up from the magazine by the breech face and extractor properly, why should it even touch the feed ramp??
Asking for a friend.

Magnumite

· #10 · 4 mo ago

The ramped barrel in 1911’s were first pioneers by the likes of Jim Clark, Sr.. He fabricated a ramp, silver soldered it on a barrel to enhance feeding of the then popular 38 Special bullseye centerfire match guns. Steve mentioned probably the biggest factor for ramped 1911’s…case support. The rest they say is history.

Glad you mentioned info on ramp angle for 9mm, Steve. I use ramp angles on my 9mm guns that run 25 - 29 degrees. That is the only way I can keep case support and get desired ramp depth. I do know ramp integrity and polish enhance the feed integrity.

wrmiller

· #11 · 4 mo ago

Clicked because your title said "sub-caliber" and I thought someone was bringing out sabot rounds for 1911s.

Sub-caliber means ammo that is smaller than the weapon's bore if I remember correctly.

Steve in Allentown

Discussion Starter · #12 · 4 mo ago

Squidsix said:
It does have one advantage that I can see right off the bat. On alloy framed guns, shooting hollow point ammunition, one can easily beat up the frame under the barrel in a non-ramped setup.

I agree that is one of the oft repeated advantages but, as you say, a steel ramp insert solves that issue without resorting to a ramped barrel. I use steel ramp inserts in all my aluminum frame .45s for that very reason.

vmax606 said:
I got a ramped barrel . . . to keep the brass from blowing up in my face, my first 38 Super pistol (Colt) came very close to doing that.

I'm curious to know if that was a factory round or a reload.

We are veering a bit off course. The question is do ramped barreled 1911s feed better than standard barreled 1911s and, if so, why?

vmax606

· #13 · 4 mo ago

DRD said:
I'll ask a question that just may prove my ignorance of the subject. If a bullet is picked up from the magazine by the breech face and extractor properly, why should it even touch the feed ramp??
Asking for a friend.

I would say the best answer is to take out your gun and load it slowly, then you will see what happens.

Be very careful and POINT THE GUN AT A SAFE DIRECTION.

Also remove the firing pin if you can.

Steve in Allentown

Discussion Starter · #14 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

wrmiller said:
Clicked because your title said "sub-caliber" and I thought someone was bringing out sabot rounds for 1911s.

You're right, definitions are important to avoid confusion. I used that term because it had been used by a 'smith whom we all know and admire. "Sabot" gives me flashbacks to my years as a tanker.

So, what's your take on the question at hand dealing with a comparison of the feeding characteristics of ramped barrels versus standard barrels?

vmax606

· #15 · 4 mo ago

Steve in Allentown said:
I'm curious to know if that was a factory round or a reload.

We are veering a bit off course. The question is do ramped barreled 1911s feed better than standard barreled 1911s and, if so, why?

They were reloads at the upper power level with Unique powder.

Do ramped barrels feed better ? I don't know .

Steve in Allentown

Discussion Starter · #16 · 4 mo ago

Magnumite said:
I use ramp angles on my 9mm guns that run 25 - 29 degrees. That is the only way I can keep case support and get desired ramp depth.

Do these pistols feed 100% with all manner of bullet styles or do they have preferences?

One of the criticisms of ramped barrels, particularly 9mm, is that the ramp doesn't extend far enough down into the frame to be able to catch all nose dives and that helper ramps have to be cut into the frame below the bottom of the ramp to fix that problem. Any insights on this?

vmax606

· #17 · 4 mo ago

I bought a Kart 38 Super barrel quite a few years ago, the bevel only goes down half way of the ramp and that makes the angle not so steep (How many degrees is it ? I don't know) but I like it a lot better than those cut on Wilson, Nowlin etc. when they dished it all the way to the bottom of the ramp, and that makes the ramp steeper.

There is no need to dish it down that far, because if the round nose dives below half way of the ramp, I don't think anything can get it to pop back up to go into the chamber.

wrmiller

· #18 · 4 mo ago

Steve in Allentown said:
You're right, definitions are important to avoid confusion. I used that term because it had been used by a 'smith whom we all know and admire. "Sabot" gives me flashbacks to my years as a tanker.

So, what's your take on the question at hand dealing with a comparison of the feeding characteristics of ramped barrels versus standard barrels?

The only 1911s/2011s I have built with ramped barrels were chambered for 38 Super and 10mm. The reason I used ramped barrels is to better support the case of the cartridge. I would do the same for 45 Super were I to build one, even though I have read somewhere that the heavier case of the 45 Super doesn't require a ramped barrel.

I built a couple of lightweight 1911 45 ACPs commanders and used ramped barrels as I was not willing to rely on an aluminum frame's ramp to provide proper feeding for any protracted period of time.

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Integrity Arms

· #19 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

I cut my ramp angle in the frame before adding the actual ramped cut. This allows the ramp to extend just below the one on the ramped barrel to handle any nose dives.

In addition for me it's more about the width of the ramp and better control over the feed path. Case support is a non issue in ramped or unramped barrels in sub-caliber if done correctly imo..

If you look at a sub-caliber non ramped barrel the ramp or throat of the feed path is narrow at the chamber. Below that on the frame the ramp is much wider and can cause the bullet to bounce left or right a lot more freely when exiting the magazine.

As far as the case sliding up the breach face and under the extractor this doesn't happen until the case is exiting the feed lips of the magazine. At that time the nose of the bullet is very close to if not already hitting the feed ramp.

In many cases a 9mm magazine will strip the subsequent round out the magazine or in effect drag the next round nearly out of the feed lips while feeding the top round. Don't believe me, feed a round and release your magazine, many will drop a live round free of the magazine after the top round has already entered and seated into the chamber.

Another reason the narrower ramp imo is needed to better control the feed path. I cut all my feed ramps from 30-31.5 degrees. Now keep in mind this is my take on the subject. Others may hold a different view. I've seen many sub-caliber guns built with unramped barrels and they seem to run fine, haven't really tested all manner of ammo through them though, but at the very least ball ammo appears to run well enough if the barrel fit is correct. I have seen some sub-caliber non-ramped barrels with the ramp or throat opened like a 45 in which case you do run the risk of losing a lot of case support if not careful.

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MisterB

· #20 · 4 mo ago

I think if the ramp angle is correct, the barrel drop is correct, and the magazine is correct, ramped and non-ramped will feed the same. In a case where a higher pressure round is being used more metal around the chamber seems like a sound safety choice. In a case where a softer material is in use for the frame, a ramped barrel may mean a more durable ramp.

My last 3 builds all used ramped barrels because I was using lightweight allow frames. Of those builds, 1 had an incorrect ramp angle that we had to correct in order to get it to feed correctly. All my builds have been in 45 acp, are the angles different for other calibers?

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