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2011s Not Drop Safe?

STACCATO
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Discussion starter · #61 ·
2tone said:
Good job ding-dongs, next year we're gonna have a bunch series 80 shít come out from all the major players, collet bushings included, and all this super unsafe stuff will be collectors items. I'm glad I got in when I did.
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Nothing wrong with Series 80 especially for a duty gun. Don't you think a gun that's carried daily into stressful, sometimes combative, situations should be drop safe?
 
#63 ·
Tokarev said:
Nothing wrong with Series 80 especially for a duty gun. Don't you think a gun that's carried daily into stressful, sometimes combative, situations should be drop safe?
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And don't forget series 80 triggers aren't bad, Ive handled plenty of series 80 designs with phenomenal triggers. Just comes down down to the gunsmith.
 
#64 · (Edited)
I am surprised that no 2011 afaik are built off 80 series design

I guess it's because of the competition heritage of these guns

this is probably a dumb question, but why can't they make a gun with a fire-pin block that is activated or deactivated by the thumb safety or grip safety?

This way it's not connected to the trigger and won't impact trigger quality?
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
new_hobbist said:
I am surprised that no 2011 afaik are built off 80 series design

I guess it's because of the competition heritage of these guns

this is probably a dumb question, but why can't they make a gun with a fire-pin block that is activated or deactivated by the thumb safety or grip safety?

This way it's not connected to the trigger and won't impact trigger quality?
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@driftingmuffin5 is correct that S80 triggers can be fine. The S80 does add some additional moving parts but can still yield a completely satisfactory trigger. At least satisfactory from a duty gun standpoint.

Colt messed with the grip safety stuff 80 or so years ago but abandoned it for whatever reason. Kimber brought it back to life as did S&W. The idea seems pretty solid in theory but in practice it is hard to execute. The problem is the timing between the grip safety release and the unlocking of the firing pin. Maybe this is why Colt didn't go all in with this pattern.

Ned Christiansen has several videos showing how the parts can be out of time:


S80 can also be improperly tuned but this seems to happen most often when someone messes with trigger overtravel and sets it to an absolute minimum. And then Colt does make a slightly different set of parts for use in Gold Cups, etc.

The kicker for Staccato will be overcoming the overblown S80 "bad trigger" stigma. That's assuming the path forward is S80 parts.
 
#66 ·
Tokarev said:
Nothing wrong with Series 80 especially for a duty gun. Don't you think a gun that's carried daily into stressful, sometimes combative, situations should be drop safe?
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I think there needs to be a risk assessment component, and humans are by and large terrible at assessing risk, as you can tell by this whole, "The sky is falling" thread. It's never been an issue, until right now.
My series 80 parts were out of time on my Sig 1911. I could tell by the impact marks on the pin block from being impacted by the pin. For sure affecting ignition. Pulled them all in favour of the series 70 conversion shim. No regrets.
 
Discussion starter · #67 ·
Tokay444 said:
I think there needs to be a risk assessment component, and humans are by and large terrible at assessing risk, as you can tell by this whole, "The sky is falling" thread. It's never been an issue, until right now.
My series 80 parts were out of time on my Sig 1911. I could tell by the impact marks on the pin block from being impacted by the pin. For sure affecting ignition. Pulled them all in favour of the series 70 conversion shim. No regrets.
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I think the issue is more complicated. Staccato has apparently stated previously that the 2011 is drop safe. At least the P as being so. Did they test to 36" or something more? And then how many departments authorizing or purchasing Staccato did testing independently? Are the various test guns passing or are they simply being approved because the department training staff thinks the guns are cool? They are cool, BTW. I got no issue with using that as part of the approval process.

As a taxpayer I'd prefer the department conduct some independent tests. Trust but verify, etc. Unless we, as taxpayers, are happy to pay a resulting lawsuit that results from a gun going off due to being dropped from X height. Especially if it is known to be a potential problem.

Individual owners, such as yourself, are free to do whatever you think is best. I assume your SIG is not being carried as a duty pistol?
 
#68 ·
Tokarev said:
I think the issue is more complicated. Staccato has apparently stated previously that the 2011 is drop safe. At least the P as being so. Did they test to 36" or something more? And then how many departments authorizing or purchasing Staccato did testing independently? Are the various test guns passing or are they simply being approved because the department training staff thinks the guns are cool? They are cool, BTW. I got no issue with using that as part of the approval process.

As a taxpayer I'd prefer the department conduct some independent tests. Trust but verify, etc. Unless we, as taxpayers, are happy to pay a resulting lawsuit that results from a gun going off due to being dropped from X height. Especially if it is known to be a potential problem.

Individual owners, such as yourself, are free to do whatever you think is best. I assume your SIG is not being carried as a duty pistol?
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None of my guns are carried as duty pistols, but 10s of thousands if not 100s of thousands of series 70 1911s have been for over 70 years. If this was an actual problem, you'd know about it outside an isolated video on the internet of someone intentionally making it happen.
 
Discussion starter · #69 ·
Tokay444 said:
None of my guns are carried as duty pistols, but 10s of thousands if not 100s of thousands of series 70 1911s have been for over 70 years. If this was an actual problem, you'd know about it outside an isolated video on the internet of someone intentionally making it happen.
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But we do know about it. Do you think Colt was working on the Swartz safety is the 1930s and 40s just for something to do?

Is the 1911 firing when dropped a common occurrence? Nope. But an unlikely one? Also nope.
 
#70 ·
Tokarev said:
But we do know about it.

A common occurrence? Nope. But an unlikely one? Also nope.
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Those who knew, knew. You can tell by the reactions in this thread that most didn't know. Are you able to direct me to one instance in 70+ years where an occurrence has lead to anything close to serious injury or death?
 
Discussion starter · #71 ·
RCSchauland said:
Several of these 2011 makers are using the longest firing pin possible coupled with a standard power spring. This is so that the light mainsprings they are using will be sure to ignite primers on the regular. I measured the firing pin from both a Staccato XL and an Atlas (forgot the name). I can't remember the numbers, but both were significantly longer than "in spec" firing pins from other manufacturers. It will be interesting to see how this develops. I'm interested because I went through a lengthy R&D phase at my previous employer on a 2011 variant and these issues were brought to light through our research.
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Sir, if you don't mind staying engaged in this thread, what's an industry accepted firing pin length and is there even such a thing? EGW says 2.26" is correct. Is that an agreed length? And then if that's a common length how much longer is the Staccato and Atlas?
 
Discussion starter · #72 ·
Tokay444 said:
Those who knew, knew. You can tell by the reactions in this thread that most didn't know. Are you able to direct me to one instance in 70+ years where an occurrence has lead to anything close to serious injury or death?
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Are you saying no one has been injured? While not a common problem it is a known issue. You admit so yourself.
 
#75 ·
Josey said:
Ben definitely likes to stir the pot, it does sell. He's pooping all over CZ now, even though he did a video a few months back of his Shadow 2 with 20k rounds and nary a problem.
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Yes, he has always stirred the pot.. Yet I beg to question what is he selling? Views?? Not likely as he don’t have a wide audience. His shop is for competition shooters which the XC would be a fish out of water in
 
#77 ·
Tokarev said:
www.athlonoutdoors.com

Dropped Gun Inertia Discharge

Athlon Outdoors Exclusive Firearm Updates, Reviews & News
www.athlonoutdoors.com www.athlonoutdoors.com
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I should have specified. That's my bad I guess for assuming we were talking about the mode in the OP. Can you point to a historical even where a series 70 1911/2011 was dropped muzzle down on a hard enough surface from a high enough height to discharge a projectile into the ground, and someone with hurt or killed?
 
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