[Trebor_Snave]

I'm sure they both work. Personally, I carry a 45 of one flavor or another. Because I can.

 

[stuartv]

Single stack? I'm carrying my Guardian (bobtail Commander) in 38 Super. 1640 fps from a 90gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullet.

Double stack? 9mm - AF S15 or DWX Compact. 1550 fps from a +P+ 90gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullet.

I have a really nice CCO in 45. I haven't carried it since I got my Guardian.

All this talk about which cartridge for self-defense seems to be leaving out a key criterion: Immediate incapacitation. Maybe 45 is more likely to put an attacker down, EVENTUALLY. But, what I think it most important, and the goal anyone should be striving for in selection of self-defense tools, is immediate incapacitation. If the attacker is hit and is going to be "out of the fight" in 3 or 4 minutes, then that 3 or 4 minutes is a LOOONG time that they could still take you out.

The papers I linked below provide analysis that supports these conclusions:

• the most important factors, by far, in achieving immediate incapacitation are shot placement and penetration. Caliber makes virtually no difference.
• hollow points are not all that reliable. The FBI paper says "handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best."
• knock-down power of handgun ammo is a myth.
• The Xtreme Defender solid core bullet creates a permanent wound cavity comparable in size to a conventional hollow point, but they penetrate like ball ammo. The best of both worlds, and far more reliable than a hollow point.
• a 9mm +P Xtreme Defender bullet penetrates as well or better than a 45 ACP hollow point bullet and creates a bigger Permanent Wound Cavity.

My conclusion: A high-capacity 9mm with 90gr XD bullets is an overall better self-defense tool than a single stack loaded with 45 ACP hollow points. If you are able to achieve the same shot placement with both, the 9mm will penetrate better and create a bigger wound cavity, making it much more likely to achieve immediate incapacitation. And, let's be real. CAN you achieve the same shot placement with a 45 on multiple shots?

Microsoft Word - 42EB2F78-3EAE-284F9C.doc

d0ba783a795f1cef262aa1027d14a092

 

[Gun stocker]

Holster selection is very important, including belt and mag pouch.
Carry what you shoot best.

 

[Buccaneer12]

Single stack? I'm carrying my Guardian (bobtail Commander) in 38 Super. 1640 fps from a 90gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullet.

Double stack? 9mm - AF S15 or DWX Compact. 1550 fps from a +P+ 90gr Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender bullet.

I have a really nice CCO in 45. I haven't carried it since I got my Guardian.

All this talk about which cartridge for self-defense seems to be leaving out a key criterion: Immediate incapacitation. Maybe 45 is more likely to put an attacker down, EVENTUALLY. But, what I think it most important, and the goal anyone should be striving for in selection of self-defense tools, is immediate incapacitation. If the attacker is hit and is going to be "out of the fight" in 3 or 4 minutes, then that 3 or 4 minutes is a LOOONG time that they could still take you out.

The papers I linked below provide analysis that supports these conclusions:

• the most important factors, by far, in achieving immediate incapacitation are shot placement and penetration. Caliber makes virtually no difference.
• hollow points are not all that reliable. The FBI paper says "handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best."
• knock-down power of handgun ammo is a myth.
• The Xtreme Defender solid core bullet creates a permanent wound cavity comparable in size to a conventional hollow point, but they penetrate like ball ammo. The best of both worlds, and far more reliable than a hollow point.
• a 9mm +P Xtreme Defender bullet penetrates as well or better than a 45 ACP hollow point bullet and creates a bigger Permanent Wound Cavity.

My conclusion: A high-capacity 9mm with 90gr XD bullets is an overall better self-defense tool than a single stack loaded with 45 ACP hollow points. If you are able to achieve the same shot placement with both, the 9mm will penetrate better and create a bigger wound cavity, making it much more likely to achieve immediate incapacitation. And, let's be real. CAN you achieve the same shot placement with a 45 on multiple shots?

Microsoft Word - 42EB2F78-3EAE-284F9C.doc

d0ba783a795f1cef262aa1027d14a092

the solid copper projectile is changing the game in handguns especially.

solid copper 9 doesnt match the wound cavity of 45, especially not solid copper 45. the advantage to solid copper is it is the most barrier blind and barrel length/velocity agnostic pistol bullet there is.

Theyve changed the game.

 

[TomD]

The papers I linked below provide analysis that supports these conclusions:

Very interesting analyses, indeed. But if you're relying on studies & statistics to guide your decision making, what about the stats that indicate that the average civilian-involved gun fight lasts 3-4 rounds? That seems to support any 'need' for dealing with the extra bulk/weight of a high cap. I would respectfully suggest that in addition to statistical theory, you might also consider reviewing security cam videos on You Tube that actually show live, real-time, armed robberies/attempts in progress - with particular attention to the reactions of bad guys at the instant they either see - or hear - that their intended victim is armed. Although statistics are indeed necessary in formulating any game plan, those real-life videos, IMHO, demonstrate how disinterested bad guys are caliber/capacity and how interested they actually are in NOT getting shot.

For the civilian with no military/LEO background, caliber/capacity decisions are mostly based on 2 things: statistical research, like yours, that most are too lazy to do; and the 'information' provided by those in the firearms industry. Suffice it to say that one of those sources might be somewhat ... biased.

No matter - choices are a beautiful thing.

 

[aimatdeer]

This

 

[Captrjc]

 

[aimatdeer]

 

[TomD]

This

BUY Camaros???
No ... some of us buy Mustangs that EAT Camaros for lunch ... 😉

 

[aimatdeer]

With v6?

 

[TomD]

With v6?

Not a finicky appetite at all ... 😉

 

[Greenleader]

Very interesting analyses, indeed. But if you're relying on studies & statistics to guide your decision making, what about the stats that indicate that the average civilian-involved gun fight lasts 3-4 rounds? That seems to support any 'need' for dealing with the extra bulk/weight of a high cap. I would respectfully suggest that in addition to statistical theory, you might also consider reviewing security cam videos on You Tube that actually show live, real-time, armed robberies/attempts in progress - with particular attention to the reactions of bad guys at the instant they either see - or hear - that their intended victim is armed. Although statistics are indeed necessary in formulating any game plan, those real-life videos, IMHO, demonstrate how disinterested bad guys are caliber/capacity and how interested they actually are in NOT getting shot.

For the civilian with no military/LEO background, caliber/capacity decisions are mostly based on 2 things: statistical research, like yours, that most are too lazy to do; and the 'information' provided by those in the firearms industry. Suffice it to say that one of those sources might be somewhat ... biased.

No matter - choices are a beautiful thing.

I agree with you. I don’t want to get shot by anything

 

[38_Swell]

the solid copper projectile is changing the game in handguns especially.

solid copper 9 doesnt match the wound cavity of 45, especially not solid copper 45. the advantage to solid copper is it is the most barrier blind and barrel length/velocity agnostic pistol bullet there is.

Theyve changed the game.

I would argue that in a typical CCW defensive gun use, barrier blind projectiles do not matter.

Shot placement matters. Capacity matters, but only when you need those shots. Anything else is really argument for argument's sakes.

 

[Buccaneer12]

I would argue that in a typical CCW defensive gun use, barrier blind projectiles do not matter.

Shot placement matters. Capacity matters, but only when you need those shots. Anything else is really argument for argument's sakes.

You spend too much of your time in and around vehicles for the barrier performance of your carry round not to matter.

 

[38_Swell]

You spend too much of your time in and around vehicles for the barrier performance of your carry round not to matter.

I would be more concerned about overpenetration, especially inside a residence.

I suppose you could have a magazine loaded for inside vs outdoors, but seems a bit complicated.

 

[Buccaneer12]

I would be more concerned about overpenetration, especially inside a residence.

I suppose you could have a magazine loaded for inside vs outdoors, but seems a bit complicated.

"barrier blind" means it performs as intended in target after passing through a barrier.

Solid copper rounds do a better job of both bucking the barrier and performing in target as intended after striking a barrier than a standard copper over lead construction.

A solid copper bullet will buck a hard barrier better, and still penetrate effectively in target, and will simultaneously buck a barrier like dry wall better and subsequently wont over penetrate in target on account of being clogged and not expanding.

 

[TexasBB]

"barrier blind" means it performs as intended in target after passing through a barrier.

Solid copper rounds do a better job of both bucking the barrier and performing in target as intended after striking a barrier than a standard copper over lead construction.

A solid copper bullet will buck a hard barrier better, and still penetrate effectively in target, and will simultaneously buck a barrier like dry wall better and subsequently wont over penetrate in target on account of being clogged and not expanding.

What copper ammo do you use or recommend?

 

[Buccaneer12]

What copper ammo do you use or recommend?

I havent done any testing in a couple years, so I dont know what all products on are on the market these days. In general, id say avoid "fracturing" rounds.

the underwood extreme defender (or i would assume similar loading of that Lehigh bullet) was the best performing, most consistent handgun round I have ever seen in my life. It pretty much always landed 15-18" in gel no matter what we put it through, and I never saw one over penetrate. It did not care what barrier it hit before hand, it just worked. We also observed less deflection through windshield glass than we did with standard construction rounds, although i would want a more focused test for that again before I really hung my hat on it.

The key is to get the "defender" not the "penetrator" for ccw.

I am really curious to test the Ft Scott stuff at some point.

I generally load my carry guns with the defender rounds, 135 +p in 45 and 90 +p+ in 9mm.

 

[TexasBB]

I havent done any testing in a couple years, so I dont know what all products on are on the market these days. In general, id say avoid "fracturing" rounds.

the underwood extreme defender (or i would assume similar loading of that Lehigh bullet) was the best performing, most consistent handgun round I have ever seen in my life. It pretty much always landed 15-18" in gel no matter what we put it through, and I never saw one over penetrate. It did not care what barrier it hit before hand, it just worked. We also observed less deflection through windshield glass than we did with standard construction rounds, although i would want a more focused test for that again before I really hung my hat on it.

The key is to get the "defender" not the "penetrator" for ccw.

I am really curious to test the Ft Scott stuff at some point.

I generally load my carry guns with the defender rounds, 135 +p in 45 and 90 +p+ in 9mm.

Thank you, sir. Much appreciated.

 

[Gun stocker]

Carry what you shoot best.