[2011Dave]

Awesome right up.

just out of curiosity, how does the sound compare between the comp and ports?

fwiw, I didn't notice anything different. Then again I'm muffed and behind the guns. We are told that ports are loud for those on the sides. I've only been around ported guns not being fired by me a couple of times, and I didn't notice much difference then either (again muffed and one of those was indoors and one was outdoors). To be sure I believe they are louder than un-ported guns and comps, but with ear pro I've not found it to be a concern (or even notable).

 

[Drell]

I have noticed that ported guns seem a lot louder to me when shooting vs my XC.

 

[2011Dave]

Head-to-Head Apollo vs. Erebus – part deux

Today was another quasi-scientific comparison at the range today, this time featuring solely the Apollo and Erebus to get a better head-to-head comparison…

Ammo choices were similarly narrowed to Excalibur 124 and Excalibur 147.

I’ve now got 200 rounds thru each of the Apollo and Erebus. Since the last range session, I added the Atlas thumb-rest slide-stop replacements to both guns. Still running each gun with an SRO and without a light.

Straight to the verdict…

The Erebus was a fair bit more accurate today. It was more accurate with both ammo grain weights and it was more accurate in both of the two shooters’ hands. The Erebus’ accuracy advantage was greater as we stretched it out from 25 to 33 and then 50 feet. The Erebus also got more accurate in our hands as we got more rounds downrange with the gun. The Apollo is no slouch, it bested my XC last week in accuracy and today it shot similarly. Frankly, I just got better with the Erebus today in my second session with it, and the Apollo shot a bit better today, but didn’t improve in my hands as much as the Erebus did from last week’s first session.

Regarding speed, I’d give the Apollo a slight edge, but the Erebus is right behind it as one of the fastest non-open guns out there in any event.

Note: We shot at medium pace, running 15 to 20 round mags to a target at 25, 33 and 50 feet. I’d guess we were shooting at 2 rounds per second on average.

Objective comments on the Guns

Erebus: It’s a sublime pleasure to shoot. Meaningfully softer and flatter and more accurate than anything else I own, and any of the great guns I’ve been fortunate enough to have had the oppty to shoot at Addicts range days (and again second only to the 5.4” Infinity sight-tracker that I shot a couple of times when down in AZ last month courtesy of a generous fellow addict).

Apollo: To be sure, its easy to like the Apollo. I’ll say again, if you have a stronger grip than me (and you likely do) and if you are a better shooter than me (and you likely are), then this gun will be a star in your hands. A good shooter with the Apollo will put down comparable groups to the Erebus and likely can do it faster. The shorter overall length and faster moving slide will make a nice difference in competition I imagine.

Ammo comments:

The 124 was meaningfully more accurate than the 147. Keep in mind these are the same ammo brand and model, just different weights.

I continue to be astounded by the wide disparity in “advice” on the interwebz regarding which ammo “runs a comp’d/ported gun best”. Some swear 115. Some say 115 sucks in them. Some say 124. Some say 147 most certainly. Others say +P. And still others say syntech. I’ve now methodically shot all of these – and several brands of them – through my XC and now the Apollo and the Erebus. This Excalibur 124 is fantastic in these guns. And, keep in mind, last week’s session showed that regular ‘ol Winchester white box 124 shot pretty much the same.

Finally, we did shoot a bit of syntech 124 and +P 124 at the end of the session. The Range Officer – who is a fantastic shooter and was a SWAT shooting instructor before he retired recently – shot the +P very tightly on center. So I do believe if you have the grip for it, the +P “runs the comp” best. For me, I’m done testing ammo methodically and will be using up my 115 inventory and then will buy 124 only going forward.

 

[Singlestack]

My experience with SB and Federal 124 is they produce very tight groups at 25y through the bus, but recently I’ve been using more fed 147 and results are solid.

B8 / 25 yards

50 yards paster, would have measured a 93 on a B6 target. Not terrible.

 

[2011Dave]

My experience with SB and Federal 124 is they produce very tight groups at 25y through the bus, but recently I’ve been using more fed 147 and results are solid.

B8 / 25 yards
View attachment 1579284 View attachment 1579285
50 yards paster, would have measured a 93 on a B6 target. Not terrible.

wow, great shooting (I've not gone past 20 yards yet - my dot would cover the entire paper target at 50 yards!). And, I have to say, this is perhaps the first time I've seen an ACRO on a 2011 and thought "that looks right". Might have to try one on the Erebus at some point.

 

[Apox]

Head-to-Head Apollo vs. Erebus – part deux

Today was another quasi-scientific comparison at the range today, this time featuring solely the Apollo and Erebus to get a better head-to-head comparison…

Ammo choices were similarly narrowed to Excalibur 124 and Excalibur 147.

I’ve now got 200 rounds thru each of the Apollo and Erebus. Since the last range session, I added the Atlas thumb-rest slide-stop replacements to both guns. Still running each gun with an SRO and without a light.

Straight to the verdict…

The Erebus was a fair bit more accurate today. It was more accurate with both ammo grain weights and it was more accurate in both of the two shooters’ hands. The Erebus’ accuracy advantage was greater as we stretched it out from 25 to 33 and then 50 feet. The Erebus also got more accurate in our hands as we got more rounds downrange with the gun. The Apollo is no slouch, it bested my XC last week in accuracy and today it shot similarly. Frankly, I just got better with the Erebus today in my second session with it, and the Apollo shot a bit better today, but didn’t improve in my hands as much as the Erebus did from last week’s first session.

Regarding speed, I’d give the Apollo a slight edge, but the Erebus is right behind it as one of the fastest non-open guns out there in any event.

Note: We shot at medium pace, running 15 to 20 round mags to a target at 25, 33 and 50 feet. I’d guess we were shooting at 2 rounds per second on average.

Objective comments on the Guns

Erebus: It’s a sublime pleasure to shoot. Meaningfully softer and flatter and more accurate than anything else I own, and any of the great guns I’ve been fortunate enough to have had the oppty to shoot at Addicts range days (and again second only to the 5.4” Infinity sight-tracker that I shot a couple of times when down in AZ last month courtesy of a generous fellow addict).

Apollo: To be sure, its easy to like the Apollo. I’ll say again, if you have a stronger grip than me (and you likely do) and if you are a better shooter than me (and you likely are), then this gun will be a star in your hands. A good shooter with the Apollo will put down comparable groups to the Erebus and likely can do it faster. The shorter overall length and faster moving slide will make a nice difference in competition I imagine.

Ammo comments:

The 124 was meaningfully more accurate than the 147. Keep in mind these are the same ammo brand and model, just different weights.

I continue to be astounded by the wide disparity in “advice” on the interwebz regarding which ammo “runs a comp’d/ported gun best”. Some swear 115. Some say 115 sucks in them. Some say 124. Some say 147 most certainly. Others say +P. And still others say syntech. I’ve now methodically shot all of these – and several brands of them – through my XC and now the Apollo and the Erebus. This Excalibur 124 is fantastic in these guns. And, keep in mind, last week’s session showed that regular ‘ol Winchester white box 124 shot pretty much the same.

Finally, we did shoot a bit of syntech 124 and +P 124 at the end of the session. The Range Officer – who is a fantastic shooter and was a SWAT shooting instructor before he retired recently – shot the +P very tightly on center. So I do believe if you have the grip for it, the +P “runs the comp” best. For me, I’m done testing ammo methodically and will be using up my 115 inventory and then will buy 124 only going forward.

View attachment 1579049

With a little more time behind the trigger of the Apollo and Erebus, do you find them redundant or enough of a difference between that you are happy to have both?

 

[2011Dave]

With a little more time behind the trigger of the Apollo and Erebus, do you find them redundant or enough of a difference between that you are happy to have both?

That's a great question. They are different, no doubt. Ideally I'd like to have/keep both. That said, I could see letting one go at some point as I am on-track to end up with too many "range use" guns and I'm not one to collect things that I cannot use. Just don't ask me which one I'd keep (although I guess I can say it would be the Erebus at this early juncture).

 

[Mayhem00]

Great write up, thanks for the insight. Apollo looks like the way to go.

would you say that the Apollo is better suited for any one particular task such as range toy, competition, ccw , training etc. or would you say it really is a Jack of all trade?

 

[2011Dave]

Great write up, thanks for the insight. Apollo looks like the way to go.

would you say that the Apollo is better suited for any one particular task such as range toy, competition, ccw , training etc. or would you say it really is a Jack of all trade?

In addition to my 3 range sessions with the Apollo now, I've watched and read pretty much everything I can find with reviews of the gun. To my eye, a consensus is emerging that its very quick and very accurate, especially if you have even a decently strong grip. Its not as soft as Erebus - which isn't saying much as Erebus is about as soft as any 9mm pistol.

Anyways, I watched the Modern Warriors vid last night and they kept paraphrasing Atlas' words that the Apollo is the "do everything Atlas", or at least the best-suited to "do everything" if you "only own 1 Atlas"...

And, I have to say, Atlas has it right. If you can only own 1 Atlas, then there is no better choice than the Apollo. Frankly, if owning 1 Atlas is someone's plan, I'd go so far as to say that I think it would be a mistake to get any other gun (unless competing with it in all classes is a must). Fwiw, I've had at least a bit of range time with most of their current offerings to reach that conclusion.

As to each role for the gun? Its not a great carry pistol imho (for several reasons that are perhaps more personal to me, I like much smaller carry guns), and Atlas makes smaller scale carry guns, so it can be carried but its not the best carry gun. Its perhaps not as much fun as Erebus for a range-use-fun gun (meaning not competing with it), but its not far behind. Its a great competitive gun for those classes that allow ports, but isn't allowed in some classes, so perhaps Artemis or Athena is the best "one gun to compete with". Of course, no one expects any gun to be "the best at everything", but in this case I'm not sure its the single best at any of these roles. Its a strong 2nd in many though...(if anything, it "might" be the single fastest Atlas, I'd have to see it compared to the Artemis and Athena head-to-head first).

I guess what I'm saying is I completely agree its a great jack of all trades, but I don't see any one thing it would be the very best at.

(and that is exactly how Morgan described the gun to me a couple of months ago when I was deciding which Atlas to make my first. I likely thought I'd only get 1 at that time.)

I guess perhaps it gets a bit boring when everyone starts to say the same thing, but to my eye the early takes on the Apollo are coalescing around that first statement by Atlas.

 

[sbr2011]

Thank you for the insightful and detailed report - as someone struggling with decision between Erebus vs Apollo vs Hayes ported island barrel, this is invaluable.

 

[2011Dave]

Thank you for the insightful and detailed report - as someone struggling with decision between Erebus vs Apollo vs Hayes ported island barrel, this is invaluable.

Tough one. I went with all three, so I'm not much help on choosing between them

What else do you have?

Intended use for the gun?

Strong grip or normal-ish or ?

 

[Mayhem00]

In addition to my 3 range sessions with the Apollo now, I've watched and read pretty much everything I can find with reviews of the gun. To my eye, a consensus is emerging that its very quick and very accurate, especially if you have even a decently strong grip. Its not as soft as Erebus - which isn't saying much as Erebus is about as soft as any 9mm pistol.

Anyways, I watched the Modern Warriors vid last night and they kept paraphrasing Atlas' words that the Apollo is the "do everything Atlas", or at least the best-suited to "do everything" if you "only own 1 Atlas"...

And, I have to say, Atlas has it right. If you can only own 1 Atlas, then there is no better choice than the Apollo. Frankly, if owning 1 Atlas is someone's plan, I'd go so far as to say that I think it would be a mistake to get any other gun (unless competing with it in all classes is a must). Fwiw, I've had at least a bit of range time with most of their current offerings to reach that conclusion.

As to each role for the gun? Its not a great carry pistol imho (for several reasons that are perhaps more personal to me, I like much smaller carry guns), and Atlas makes smaller scale carry guns, so it can be carried but its not the best carry gun. Its perhaps not as much fun as Erebus for a range-use-fun gun (meaning not competing with it), but its not far behind. Its a great competitive gun for those classes that allow ports, but isn't allowed in some classes, so perhaps Artemis or Athena is the best "one gun to compete with". Of course, no one expects any gun to be "the best at everything", but in this case I'm not sure its the single best at any of these roles. Its a strong 2nd in many though...(if anything, it "might" be the single fastest Atlas, I'd have to see it compared to the Artemis and Athena head-to-head first).

I guess what I'm saying is I completely agree its a great jack of all trades, but I don't see any one thing it would be the very best at.

(and that is exactly how Morgan described the gun to me a couple of months ago when I was deciding which Atlas to make my first. I likely thought I'd only get 1 at that time.)

I guess perhaps it gets a bit boring when everyone starts to say the same thing, but to my eye the early takes on the Apollo are coalescing around that first statement by Atlas.

Great insight Dave, and just as you described many of the videos I have watched regarding the Apollo echo very similar sentiments. It’s not the best at any one particular thing but it’s great for many.

To your recommendation that’s it’s a strong candidate to be the first atlas people should purchase. Would you say that it’s that much better than the staccato xc? Or would an XC with the atlas trigger upgrades be a better bang for the Buck?

 

[sbr2011]

Tough one. I went with all three, so I'm not much help on choosing between them

What else do you have?

Intended use for the gun?

Strong grip or normal-ish or ?

I’m using it mostly as a range toy. Was initially interested in Infinity but that new drop approach is just BS and I don’t have a bot to snatch one.
Grip is normal so learning towards the Erebus or Hayes.

 

[2011Dave]

Great insight Dave, and just as you described many of the videos I have watched regarding the Apollo echo very similar sentiments. It’s not the best at any one particular thing but it’s great for many.

To your recommendation that’s it’s a strong candidate to be the first atlas people should purchase. Would you say that it’s that much better than the staccato xc? Or would an XC with the atlas trigger upgrades be a better bang for the Buck?

well, I have shot the Apollo head-to-head twice with my stock XC already.

First thing that pops to mind is that they are different guns in many regards. The length of the XC and poly grip make it feel very different in terms of balance.

Shooting wise - the XC is much softer and the muzzle stays down better due to the giant comp and the front sight block weight. The Atlas returns the dot far more quickly and far more accurately/consistently (see my earlier comments in my longer comparison posts). So the Apollo is faster and I believe more accurate. The XC is flatter.

Bang for the buck? Hmmm...well, I have said the XC is the single best bang-for-the-buck in 2011's and I still think that is true. Its $4300 (with a discount often findable) vs. $6500 for the Apollo. That's a not insignificant 50%+, or $2200.

[As many folks do, I am giving thought to an $2000 XC improvement project (steel cheely grip, infinity flat trigger, Atlas ambi-safety, a fair bit of trigger/ignition component smithing) which would bring the XC up to Atlas cost level. Frankly I'm not sure the XC will be any better than the Apollo after that project...so I'm still on the fence about doing it - even though I've already got all the parts sitting in my gun shop.]

To your question - simply/merely changing the trigger shoe for a flat trigger on the XC is a sub-$100 project. I think if you like flat triggers, that is fine. But I don't think it will change the trigger pull much, let alone the overall quality of the XC. Despite adding some great triggers lately with the Apollo and Erebus and a very fine Nighthawk TRS trigger - I am actually coming to appreciate my XC trigger more. I actually think its better now than it was when I got it a couple of months ago after getting 800 or so rounds downrange.

 

[2011Dave]

I’m using it mostly as a range toy. Was initially interested in Infinity but that new drop approach is just BS and I don’t have a bot to snatch one.
Grip is normal so learning towards the Erebus or Hayes.

I think if I was after a pure range use gun and only getting one of these guns - I would get the Hayes. While I have not had one in hand (so take this as worth nothing I guess), my understanding is the level of hand finishing and fit is going to be even above Atlas. That said, anyone looking for a range fun gun that gets an Erebus is going to be thrilled. No ifs and or buts, its hard to beat it for a range fun gun. (notice which of the three I didn't mention? And this despite me likely re-homing the Apollo out of the group. So no self-serving comments from me! Its a great gun, its just not the best "range fun gun" out of the three you are considering imo.)

And a Gov length island ported barrel (with steel grip) is going to be a fantastic flat/soft shooter. And its going to be far more unique than "yet another Erebus". I'll throw this out there despite it being complete hearsay - earlier today I was conversing with a guy that owns 2 Infinities about potentially buying 1 of them...and, get this, he said he has 2 Hayes Cobra's and is ordering a third because he finds them to be higher build quality than his Infinities. And keep in mind he was sorta trying to have me buy the infinity...so...who knows.

I guess I'd also say, if you have the funds now, and live by the "not getting any younger" "life is too short" yada yada yada...go buy an Erebus today and have it delivered this week. If you want to wait for 6 months, that opens up Hayes and Apollo. Last words on this - one thing I learned/adopted a while back when facing these sorts of decisions over sports cars - these decisions are not "life-long decisions". You can get one now, and get the other later (by selling the first or not, whatever). So you can try both at one point or another. We often get bogged down in "which is the exactly right one", but fwiw and for me only ymmv, I decided to just get 'em and sort 'em out later. Or get one, enjoy it, rehome it, get the next and so on...

 

[Mayhem00]

well, I have shot the Apollo head-to-head twice with my stock XC already.

First thing that pops to mind is that they are different guns in many regards. The length of the XC and poly grip make it feel very different in terms of balance.

Shooting wise - the XC is much softer and the muzzle stays down better due to the giant comp and the front sight block weight. The Atlas returns the dot far more quickly and far more accurately/consistently (see my earlier comments in my longer comparison posts). So the Apollo is faster and I believe more accurate. The XC is flatter.

Bang for the buck? Hmmm...well, I have said the XC is the single best bang-for-the-buck in 2011's and I still think that is true. Its $4300 (with a discount often findable) vs. $6500 for the Apollo. That's a not insignificant 50%+, or $2200.

[As many folks do, I am giving thought to an $2000 XC improvement project (steel cheely grip, infinity flat trigger, Atlas ambi-safety, a fair bit of trigger/ignition component smithing) which would bring the XC up to Atlas cost level. Frankly I'm not sure the XC will be any better than the Apollo after that project...so I'm still on the fence about doing it - even though I've already got all the parts sitting in my gun shop.]

To your question - simply/merely changing the trigger shoe for a flat trigger on the XC is a sub-$100 project. I think if you like flat triggers, that is fine. But I don't think it will change the trigger pull much, let alone the overall quality of the XC. Despite adding some great triggers lately with the Apollo and Erebus and a very fine Nighthawk TRS trigger - I am actually coming to appreciate my XC trigger more. I actually think its better now than it was when I got it a couple of months ago after getting 800 or so rounds downrange.

Thanks ALOT, you have cleared up many points for me between the two 🫡

 

[2011Dave]

Okay folks, another update here and this update includes a surprise...

On Sunday, I did my first fun shooting event with the local range crew...They organized a plate racks at various distances competition with a shot timer. I shot the Erebus on Sunday because it heretofore had been the gun I shot the best of my set of 2011's. I did "okay", but did miss several plates as the distances went out to 20 and 25 yards.

I went back today by myself and took the Erebus, Apollo and my Nighthawk TRS Commander and my new PACT shot timer.

I shot 350 rounds altogether using my new shot timer for the first time. Did some bill drills and then did the plate rack from 15 yards.

I'll get to the surprise right now...Apollo kicked Erebus ass. I mean slapped it, stepped on its neck and called its momma names.

I mixed the guns from the start, shooting a couple of plate sets with each one, then changing guns.

I started out okay with the Erebus, clearing all 6 plates in 6.5 seconds and got it down to 5.6 seconds. I had a few clean runs, but also a few that took 2-3 extra shots to clear all the plates.

With the NH it was a large step backward. 7 to 9 seconds with some misses.

Then there was the Apollo. Wow, this gun is so easy to shoot quickly and accurately. It moves to targets much easier and quicker for me than the Erebus. My first run with the Apollo was 5.6 and I got down to 3.6. Most runs with the Apollo were clean, no misses. I am applying a stronger grip on the Apollo now than I was in the first couple of range sessions. And, as I suspected, a stronger grip on this gun and it comes alive. It feels like an extension of you and just points right where you want it, and transitions as quickly as you can move, then delivers the bullet where you aimed. Sounds easy, but we all know its not so simple. Honestly, I think this gun would be amazing in a good shooter's hands...

I literally told myself as I was finishing the last couple of mags "I'm never selling this gun"....I'm in gun-love with the Apollo now. I will do more of this type of training with all of the guns and we shall see if I continue to shoot Apollo markedly better than the Erebus in drills that are more than merely putting holes in paper targets from a perfect, controlled stance in the indoor range...(recall Erebus was showing better in that type of shooting thu far)

 

[rabbot8923]

IMO, Erebus and Apollo are two different guns. Apollo is a better Athena, but the Erebus is till an Erebus. If you wanted one gun that can do it all its the Apollo. If you want the smoothies range gun ever, it's the Erebus.

 

[Apox]

I'm surprised you had that much of a delta between your best plate rack times Apollo vs. Erebus. Do you think it had anything to do with it being the third gun you shot, so plenty of warm up to get into it, or does the feel of the gun just mesh with you that much better?

You have a great lineup. I'm still contemplating Apollo or Hayes ported island barrel. Even tossed the Fowler V9 into the mix. The idea of buying something now to play around with and rehoming to give something else a shot is a perspective I may need to adopt. Find what I like best and keep it as a lifer. Every gun can't be a grail at the end of the day.

 

[2011Dave]

I'm surprised you had that much of a delta between your best plate rack times Apollo vs. Erebus. Do you think it had anything to do with it being the third gun you shot, so plenty of warm up to get into it, or does the feel of the gun just mesh with you that much better?

You have a great lineup. I'm still contemplating Apollo or Hayes ported island barrel. Even tossed the Fowler V9 into the mix. The idea of buying something now to play around with and rehoming to give something else a shot is a perspective I may need to adopt. Find what I like best and keep it as a lifer. Every gun can't be a grail at the end of the day.

I was surprised too (as I mentioned). I fully expected them to be similar, if not a sight edge to Erebus. I actually mixed the guns from the start, so shot each of them with the same amount of warm-up.

Part of this is still me being not very good and thus not consistent. But I did enough mags that I’d have thought Erebus would get my best effort somewhere along the line.

I had a good clean run with it and got a 5.6. This was right after a clean 5.6 with the Apollo. Yet somehow the Apollo and I then had a couple of clean and very fast (for me) runs that astounded me. I tried to replicate with the Erebus and just missed too many plates when moving as fast as the 3.6 to 4.6 Apollo runs.

(re buying guns and shooting them and then rehoming later vs holding out and trying to buy the best grail gun is something I’ve written about here someplace. I adopted the get em now and sort em out later approach.)