Curious as well, tagged to see what is out there.

 

Tagged also... great question.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

If you think 1911s can be frustrating, just wait until you get into "laser training."

Pistol Annie and I have spent a lot of time and money and tried a lot of laser stuff. We have tried so much of this crap I have lost count. If you have questions specific to any of these I will try to answer them. Our experience includes but is not limited to:

• G-Sight Pro Android app
• iTarget Pro (iTargetPro (Laser Firearm Training System) Shoot Your Gun in the House)
• Laser Ammo (Home | Laser Ammo) Smokeless Range software, visible red and IR laser cartridges, Interactive Multi-target System and modified KWA Airsoft pistol
• L.A.S.R. software (LASR Team)
• CoolFire trainer (CoolFire Trainer Laser Recoil System - Train at a fraction of the cost of firing live rounds.)
• SIRT pistols (Next Level Training |)

We own all of this stuff and probably more that I have forgotten. We've easily spent more than $2,000 on this **** since 2016. Here's my bottom line:

• Best bang for the buck: G-Sight Pro Android app
• Best hardware: SIRT laser pistols
• Best pro-grade software: L.A.S.R.

Current L.A.S.R. setup in the living room.​

Screenshot from the G-Sight Pro Grouping feature​

Here's my opinion based on our actual experience from spending 3+ years and thousands of dollars --
Most of this stuff is absolute crap. It is unreliable, incompatible, overpriced junk. I cannot tell you how many times we have sent things back because they failed within days.

OMG, the "gas-powered recoil guns" are just absolute ****. All the lasers are made in some mud hut in China and half of them are DOA out of the box. The IR lasers stop working and you can't figure out what's wrong because you can't see them when they are working. The "gas" guns leak, clog, break valves, have about a 5-shot capacity, etc. The laser "cartridges" don't fit, don't fire, whatever. It's just a total freaking shitshow.

HOWEVER...

• SIRT pistols are absolutely rock solid. It's the only thing we have ever bought that we had zero regrets and has never failed. Expensive, yes. But you get far more reliability and usability than spending the same on some modified airsoft junk or some overpriced "adapter" for your real pistol.
• The G-Sight Pro app is absolutely amazing for $10-$15. Buy the Pro version for $10, and buy the "Special Grouping Feature" for another $5. You will not be sorry. This is the only package I have seen with a grouping function. It's pretty cool. You do need to shut down all the background stuff on your phone, put it in airplane mode, etc. You need the CPU free to run the app and camera, but it works really well for single-person drills.
• If you really want to get into this, the L.A.S.R. software is killer. At the low end it is nowhere near as much bang-for-the-buck as G-Sight Pro, but once you put in the time and effort to get good with it and unlock the advanced features, it is unmatched.
• Lighting matters. You can't have too much and you can't have too little. Your targets can't be reflective. We now print all our targets on manila-colored newsprint or brown craft paper.
• Giving the phone apps as much memory and CPU as possible matters. If something isn't working on a phone app it is probably because you have too much going on in the background. Unless we need Bluetooth or Location services or somesuch to run an app we now close everything and put our phones in Airplane mode.
• "Interactive" targets are still just gimmicks, IMO a waster of money. When it stops working you don't know if the laser sensor broke or the target battery died or the laser cartridge broke or the laser cartridge battery died and on and on. You'll spend far more time trying to figure out why the damn thing isn't working that you'll ever spend using it.
• Keep it as simple as possible. Stick with laser software or apps, visible lasers, printed targets.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Your mileage may vary.

 

If you think 1911s can be frustrating, just wait until you get into "laser training."

Pistol Annie and I have spent a lot of time and money and tried a lot of laser stuff. We have tried so much of this crap I have lost count. If you have questions specific to any of these I will try to answer them. Our experience includes but is not limited to:

• G-Sight Pro Android app
• iTarget Pro (iTargetPro (Laser Firearm Training System) Shoot Your Gun in the House)
• Laser Ammo (Home | Laser Ammo) Smokeless Range software, visible red and IR laser cartridges, Interactive Multi-target System and modified KWA Airsoft pistol
• L.A.S.R. software (LASR Team)
• CoolFire trainer (CoolFire Trainer Laser Recoil System - Train at a fraction of the cost of firing live rounds.)
• SIRT pistols (Next Level Training |)

We own all of this stuff and probably more that I have forgotten. We've easily spent more than $2,000 on this **** since 2016. Here's my bottom line:

Here's my opinion based on our actual experience from spending 3+ years and thousands of dollars --

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Your mileage may vary.

I have a SIRT and agree with your review of it. I was considering purchasing the Smokeless Range. I see you have it but didn't mention it in your review. Is there something about it that you don't like?

 

I have the Laserlyte Quick Tyme Target system. I wanted a system that did not involve an app. It works great but the inherent limitations in these systems are 1) the 1911 is a SA pistol so you cannot shoot repeat shots with a laser cartridge as you would live firing and 2) there is no recoil.

Amazon.com : LASERLYTE trainer target Quick Tyme with 62 LEDs that light up SHOT TIMER built in to record dry fire laser shots LASER TRACER FIRE the LEDs light up in order of being shot buy a laser trainer, Depth: 1.25 inches - Height: 9.50 inches - Width: 6.50 inches : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : LASERLYTE trainer target Quick Tyme with 62 LEDs that light up SHOT TIMER built in to record dry fire laser shots LASER TRACER FIRE the LEDs light up in order of being shot buy a laser trainer, Depth: 1.25 inches - Height: 9.50 inches - Width: 6.50 inches : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

 

I have the Laserlyte Quick Tyme Target system. I wanted a system that did not involve an app. It works great but the inherent limitations in these systems are 1) the 1911 is a SA pistol so you cannot shoot repeat shots with a laser cartridge as you would live firing and 2) there is no recoil.

Claudia says there is one of these at the main gun club where she teaches. Says it seems to work pretty good although she's just seen others use it and not done so herself. I do like the laser cartridges - especially for working on that first shot out of the holster or first shot after a reload with your actual firearm.

 

Im using the free G site app and bought a $30 laser cartridge off of Amazon.
Works great and shows grouping.
Really a game changer for dry fire practice.

 

This is very helpful, thank you everyone. I assumed there would be some limitations, like no second shot capability without hand cycling my weapon. I like the sirt, but they don't carry a model in 1911 as of yet. I'm fine with a first shot from the draw trainer. Also for looking for poi impact change from trigger jerking. I imagined a laser cartridge i can fit into my pistol (recommendations welcome) and target/smartphone app.

 

If you have an Android phone just get the free version of the G-Sight app and buy yourself a laser cartridge. it doesn't really matter which one. My experience is that there is a 60%-70% failure rate with all of them. If you buy three one will die after a week, one will be DOA and one will work. Which one you get when is just random.

 

So I got the Laser Ammo/Smokeless Range camera out, connected it to my laptop/L.A.S.R. software and it does recognize shots from the SIRT pistol. I think it's some sort of weird IR-only camera and the pictures are awful but it does recognize red laser. So the SIRT should work with SR but I will check that out in a few days.

 

Just for grins, here is a sample of a drill I'm able to run with shot recording software and a resetting trigger device (SIRT, Laser Ammo, CoolFire, etc.)

I know not everyone needs, wants, or can afford a resetting trigger device. They are expensive, can be unreliable depending on what you get, aren't always available in our favorite firearms, etc. I get all that and am not suggesting everyone should do it. I just offer this as an example of what can be done with some of these systems. Maybe it will inspire some of you to look into it in this Age of CoViD and Ammo Famine. It is possible to get a really good workout in a small space and focus on holster draw, presentation, sight picture, trigger control, transitions, and freehand/SH/WH technique even though there isn't any recoil.

This is a 1/4-scale IDPA Shoot/No-Shoot target cluster printed on 8.5"x11" paper.

I can shoot this from 7'6" (1/2-scale 5 yds) and 10'6" (1/2-scale 7 yds) in my living room. (The room is pretty big and I can actually do 5, 7, 10 and 15 yards at 1/2-scale.) The target is smaller than half-scale so shooting is a little more challenging than maybe it ought to be but that's ok. I have a "lane" that is about 5' wide - wide enough that I can take a good-sized step from one side to the other to "get off the X." So I could easily do this in a 10' x 14' room if I had space around the furniture to move.

Anyway, this drill consists of 9 strings of fire. Scoring is 5, 3, 1. A hit on the No Shoot is -5:
Strings 1-3: At the buzzer draw, fire two shots at each threat target.
Strings 4-5: Draw, fire two, reload, fire two.
Strings 6-7: Draw, fire two, reload, fire two Strong Hand-only
Strings 8-9: Draw, fire two, reload, fire two Support Hand-only.
I also start on either the left or right side, take one step to the other side at each draw and reload.

The software records scoring and time and calculates "hit factor" (points per second) for a rating. It shows diagnostics (laser traces) so I can see how much I move the muzzle as I pull the trigger, and it shows split times.

Running this drill (with the added movement) all the way through three times is a decent workout. At the range this would be a 28-round drill - so that's about 75 rounds of work and it feels pretty darned real. If I wanted I could substitute two other drills instead of repeating this one. (Maybe the Rangemaster Baseline Concealment drill found here on the last page: https://www.rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-01_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf, or a cadence or casino drill.) I could have wider transitions, targets at different heights, targets at 45- to 90-degree angles, etc. I can run any combination of multi-string drills that I want. If I want to do race mode the software will let Pistol Annie and me compete. (I do not do that too often because she gets a big head when she wins all the time. ;-))

Absolutely no such laser thingy is going to replicate firing off a .45ACP or even a 9mm. But there is no question that this type of work can provide valuable reinforcement and improvement of my fundamentals, mechanics and techniques. It's a good workout and it's enjoyable.

Again I am not suggesting this is for everyone, but if you are already interested perhaps this will encourage you to think seriously about a resetting trigger device.



.

 

CrimsonTrace and the older M&P were the best ever. IMO

 

Well I spent the entire day today diagnosing/repairing/testing the Laser Ammo recoil trainer gun (KWA ATP-LE) and the CoolFire Trainer for Pistol Annie's Walther PPQ - both of which use IR lasers and which I needed working in order to properly test Smokeless Range.. Both are now working properly except for zero-ing the lasers.

We also received a cheap, Chinese resetting trigger device from LaserLyte - the Trigger Tyme Laser Trainer Pistol - Compact - supposedly a G43 knockoff: Amazon.com : LaserLyte Laser Trainer Pistol Compact GLOCK 43 familiar size weight and feel RESETTING TRIGGER at 5.5 lb is ready to shoot after every pull FIRES a laser dot when REAL GUN SIGHTS for training : Sports & Outdoors

It's not, really. A G43 blockier and the grip frame is deeper front-to-rear, But it does have a lousy, mushy trigger like a Glock. It has a visible red laser like the SIRT pistols, and we got it to see if it was a decent lower-cost option to SIRT.

The CoolFire has a pretty good kick for a gas-powered recoil trainer - decidedly more than the Green Gas-driven Laser Ammo device. But it has about 1/4 the capacity - 7-8 good shots vs 25-30 on the Laser Ammo

 

@dldarrow We installed and tested the latest version of Smokeless Range today. It does indeed work just fine with the SIRT and the Laserlyte Trigger Tyme visible lasers as well as with the CoolFire Trainer IR laser recoil device. We are still having trouble getting the Laser Ammo KWA ATP recoil device to register properly but their tech support is very good and I'm sure they will get us going.

I haven't used this in a long while and v.2.0 has some improvements. There are several moving target drills that work very well. Here's a short video of me running a drill.

I will reaffirm my opinion that this is far more fiddly to setup than the LASR software. While it definitely does some hings that simply can't be done with LASR, it really does need to be in a permanent or semi-permanent setup. It's just far too much trouble to setup for a spontaneous practice session and we just don't have room in the house to leave it setup.

There is a lot we could do with it however, and we will be looking for a way to get a dedicated simulator room in the future.

 

I will reaffirm my opinion that this is far more fiddly to setup than the LASR software. While it definitely does some hings that simply can't be done with LASR, it really does need to be in a permanent or semi-permanent setup. It's just far too much trouble to setup for a spontaneous practice session and we just don't have room in the house to leave it setup.

I do have the space to set it up and leave it up, but would be buying a dedicated computer to run it. And if I understand correctly it only works with red and IR lasers. My SIRT pistol has the green laser. I have the LASR software and like it, but I keep getting drawn into the myriad of cool things that the SR package can do.

Thanks for doing the extra work to test and show us what it does!

 

Im looking at this..

Strikeman Laser Firearm Training System

Strikeman is a dry-fire training system that allows you to practice your shooting skills without the need for live ammunition. By using our signature target, laser bullet and smartphone holder in unison with our phone app, you can safely practice your shot in the comfort of your home...

www.strikeman.io

 

Let us know what you think about the strikeman system. This system looks appealing to me. Im interested in the laser cartridge; I hope the higher price and good reviews mean its better than the ebay options.

 

I just read many of the reviews about the Strikeman system. A number of the reviewers mentioned the issue with the poor quality of the tripod that holds the smartphone camera that's focused on the provided target. I have the Mantis Laser Academy system, which uses very similar components (if not from the same manufacturer). My system also includes a 2nd larger tripod that does a better job of securely holding my iPhone. I have also tried using my iPad instead of the iPhone -- this requires propping the iPad up vertically, using some 2x4 cutoffs, as neither the small or larger tripod cam accommodate a mobile device with the size/weight of an iPad Pro (12.9"). The iPad's screen is a lot easier to see from longer distances.

Other reviewers of the Strikeman system mentioned issues with the software in the app, along with problems with ambient lighting, which resulted in shots made that either weren't registered, or "phantom" shots that mysteriously appeared even when the gun was not fired. These same problems also affect the Mantis Laser Academy Kit. A few days ago, I sent a comment to Mantis (via their website's comment form) enumerating the issues I was experiencing while using their kit. I'm looking forward to seeing a reply from them.

Meanwhile, it sounds like none of the sellers of these laser kits provide comprehensive documentation on how to set up your dry-fire laser range. While the apps provide some informational instructions on how to set or personalize the various options for the app, but are vague on how to resolve the missing or phantom shots that are scored (or not scored). There are no instructions or recommendations on how to configure the laser range distances, i.e., how far to place the camera tripod away from the target, what the optimal distances are for the shooter from the target (it's hard to see the iPhone screen when you're more than 15' away). Another issue I have is that regardless of the lighting I've tried using, the focus of the target on the mobile device's screen is never sharp/clear. You cannot simply use the usual camera focusing technique that you would when taking photographs when you're looking at the camera view while the laser app is in use. Finally, when testing using the iPad instead of the iPhone, I got some unexpected results, like having every shot scored as a "1", instead of reflecting what the shots on target actually displayed (e.g., 7, 8, 9, 10). There may be some incompatibility when using the Mantis Laser Academy app on the iPad -- i'll continue testing though to see if this result was some sort of option setting or other anomaly.

Overall, I expected that my laser app would have been more "polished", and that the tripods were sturdier (they really are flimsy made-in-China pieces). The laser cartridge (a "Pink Rhino") seems well-made and should last (longer than the 3 tiny batteries). Hopefully there will be software updates introduced to improve image and performance quality with the apps. Bottom line is that the current implementations of these laser systems seem a bit rudimentary, and they'll likely get better over time. I'll keep experimenting with my Mantis Laser Academy kit, and see if I can tweak the lighting and physical setup to improve the experience.

I also have the Mantis X2 dry-fire shooting performance system, and it's a much more refined product in my opinion. (Info here: How it works). For now I'll continue to practice with both the Laser Academy kit and the X2 accessory rail-mounted device and will hope to see some improvements in my next visit to the range. For those contemplating getting a laser system for dry-firing practice, I'd recommend reading the online reviews (focus on those with less than 4-5 stars), and talk with people who own or have used them.

 

My efforts with the Mantis Laser Academy Kit over the past month haven't been entirely satisfactory. I set up my basement workshop as my "range", as it's long and narrow ~9' x 30') has doors that can be closed off to the adjacent laundry and rec rooms, and has just 2 glass block window. There's not a lot of outside light coming in to cause phantom shots to register. I've done a lot of experimentation with lighting and target and camera (iPhone) set-up. The fluorescent shop lights seem to cause issues with false hits as well as legitimate hits on target not scoring correctly. I've tried turning off the overhead lighting and using portable LED lighting at various intensity levels. I even attempted framing the supplied targets within a suitably sized cardboard box, and then back-lighting the target using an LED light. That didn't seem to help either, despite the hours and efforts I put into it, so I decided to move on to something new.

I did a lot of searching online for a laser training system that would be simple to set up, provide accurate results and most of all, be fun to use. I then found an interesting dry firing system at Dry Fire Online (Dry Fire Online). Since I already had the laser cartridge and a tripod available, I downloaded the DFO app to my iPhone and took advantage of their free trial. The system uses the iPhone's camera to detect shots on DFO targets set up on my MacBook. My tests over the course of the past week have had minimal issues with phantom hits caused by lighting issues or scoring anomalies. And rather than using paper targets that must be recognized and autofocused on by a smartphone app, the Dry Fire Online user links to the DFO website (on the MacBook) to build a "stage" with the target type, distances and whatever options the user want to use. Then I use the iPhone DFO camera app to work with the Dry Fire Online website.

Here are a couple of videos from their website that illustrate how it all works and some of the many target options available.

As could be seen in the first video, the setup included a video projector that connects to the laptop, and projects an image of the target on a wall or screen that is very realistic size-wise. In my current setup (in an upstairs room for now), since I don't have a projector, my target that I fire the laser at is the screen of a 13" MacBook. It's a pretty small target when I'm shooting from 15' or so away. And it's pretty hard to tell if you've hit the target (which is indicated by cross marks +++). Since this temporary room (which is warmer and more comfy than my basement workshop!) has a 47" flatscreen close by, I connected an HDMI output of the MacBook to a spare input on the TV. This enables me to see just where my shots have landed. Unfortunately, the TV cannot be used as the actual target (it's not a smart TV with a internet connected browser on it). There are also some issues with firing a laser at an LCD TV screen (lack of reflectivity back to the camera for one). I had to place a frosted piece of plastic (cut off from a see-through Staples 3-ring folder) over the MacBook's screen to ensure it registers the laser hits properly. Someday I may get a video projector to use in my workshop "range" - once I do that (and if I do that since they can be pricey), I'll be aiming at a much larger target from further away - a much more realistic configuration. Until then, here's the setup I've been using for testing.

 

I like it simple. So I bought a laserlyte cartridge to try it out. The laser stays on for several 10s of milliseconds. So a single clean laser spot shows a good trigger pull and also shows a hit on whatever target I decided to use. I liked the 9mm so much I bought the 45 and a 380 for the wife. My G3c has restrike capability so no racking every shot. Laserlytes are also usful for zeroing in sights at home. I did buy a mantisX and iti s great for LIVE fire but dry fire is very unreliable often showing multiple shots when there was only one.