Glad to know he has 2023 dates planned.

Hopeful sign....

 

He is definitely a wealth of knowledge. I took a 2-day 1911 Operator class in 2017, so not recently. Part of the class was shooting and part of it was some light 1911 armorer stuff. That was not long into my 1911 journey so I think I did get quite a bit out of it. To be honest, part of the reasoning for taking it was because it was Larry Vickers.

 

I've not had any classes from him in several years. That being said, he pistol classes are good for the basics. I'm not saying his advanced classes are good/bad, just his approach is very simple. Some people might expect more.

If you have been in the military, you'll pickup on that mindset from him.

 

I’m in for the St. Augustine class on the 7th & 8th. I’ll do an AAR on it…

 

He trained Delta shooters for years so I think you will be OK.

 

The guy is a great American and titan in the industry. But without access to TTPs, after actions, modern tactics and experience…I question how valid or efficient is what he’s teaching.

I.e. Why train with someone who has been out of Delta for 20 years when you can train with someone who has been out for 20 weeks…
All things being equal I would rather learn from someone who has more experience with modern platforms/accessories and techniques.

Again, respect the hell out of the guy but to OP’s question that’s my thought process.

 

With respect to LAV, he was my introduction into outside training and I've taken multiple classes with him on a variety of subjects. It was interesting seeing his arc from the late 2000's and the early 2010's and seeing his demeanor change from class to class and as other endeavors were starting/ending. Some later classes had less instruction/insight and the content was more supervised drills rather than a learning environment. You can find several AAR's from those times noting how much of his time was spent on his phone...not even getting into the token bull sessions/Super Dave stories during down times...

I still respect the hell out of Larry for his knowledge, his service, and what I was able to learn, and I wish him all the best. That said, comparing what I've gotten from other sources and how much the "instructor" game has changed these past few years, I would be doing a disservice in saying that IF skill advancement and one-on-one attention is a requirement, there are better options. If you've got to scratch the itch to hang out and shoot with Larry, it's probably still a good time.

 

IDK much…I’m just an old dude but it would seem to me that front sight, press and move off the X to cover/concealment matter most. At least it did all the times I was in the $h1t…

“There’s no such thing as an advanced gunfight”, The Late Louis Awerbuck.

 

I took a combination handgun/carbine class and the 1911 anniversary class with Vickers and Hackathorn. Both classes were excellent, but both were ten or so years ago.

I'd take another Vickers class w/o hesitation. But I have no idea on how his teaching style has changed.

 

I also took the 1911 Centennial Class with Ken and Larry in 2011. My class was in the Fall as the first one filled up with Bill Wilson and some of his staff. It was a great class and I had a lot of fun too.

 

Anyone know if Uncle Bob has posted his 2023 classroom dates yet.....or is he still advising unsolicited for free on here ???

 

Sign me up!!!!! ROFLMAO
Will Rob be assisting? 😂

 

I’ll echo what pointblank4445 said. Except I actually think there was zero instruction out of him and Ken Hackathon. I took a 1911 class with them in 2012 or 2013.

Lots of drills. Lots of war stories and back slapping. Zero instruction. None. Just running drills.

38 students to one instructor is a no go for me as well. I’ll never go to another class with either of them. I took absolutely nothing from it.

Great people. Respect them both. But there are better choices to actually train.

Personally, I’d go to Gunsite Academy. I’m biased since I’m a Gunsite instructor, but in my opinion it’s top notch. And the facility is amazing.

If that’s not a possibility I’d suggest Langdon, Yeti Fisher or Erick Gelhaus from Cougar Mountain.

 

I have trained with LAV twice in the past, and the more recent class was about three years ago. I have taken a general intermediate type handgun class with him, and the more recent class focused solely on the 1911. As others have commented, he takes a very fundamental approach to pistol shooting, and stresses accuracy. To push skills and abilities, he varies target sizes and distances, but pushes shooters to perform to their best level on the given target. I have “borrowed” several drills from him for teaching my co-workers, and I appreciate his approach in skill building (Of course I credit him when using them).

In my experience, LAV is very approachable and is a likeable guy who wants to make us better shooters. His 1911 class also included a session on detail stripping, cleaning and maintenance, which is something many shooters are not familiar with.

 

I have much respect for Austin Milbarge.
We come from the same lineage: Col. Cooper. I’m off to train with L.A.V. in the morning. I hope to have a better experience and will report back.
I have experiences similar to his and spoke with instructors and was told: “You don’t really need to be here…”

 

My experience training with L.A.V. did not mirror Austin Milbarge’s. It was an excellent experience/investment. I’ll post a detailed AAR when I can…

 

curious to hear how your experience was.

 

Imho given his experience and 1911 research I would definitely assume he would hold a solid course… especially given his round count on the range and likely passing of his personal experience well worth it… sometimes it is something relatively small that can make a huge difference in shooting better . I found pushing my firing hand forward while pulling back with my support hand creating a solid grip platform almost like a vise increased my accuracy, precision and speed immensely.

 

Promised AAR:
Day 1: Class started with requisite intros, paperwork and safety lecture on to dry fire trigger control with coins or empty cases.
The majority of the shooters were not novices so things progressed pretty quickly, shooting various drills from the ready such as the walk back and dirty 30 among others. Numerous times L.A.V. would stop the drill to insruct or tweak/correct/ someone’s technique. This wasn’t done to embarrass anyone but used as a teaching moment. Time constraints were introduced to the drills.
Day 2: More of the same drills from the holster and later with time constraints added. Reload and malfunction drills were added in with different variations and their strengths and weaknesses demonstrated. The reload portion was where I got the “most bang for my buck”.
I’ve always used the slingshot method as it works in every auto that you’re likely to encounter and it’s touted as being more reliable. FOR ME it is also much slower. L.A.V. had me try the slide release method using the support side thumb and almost cut my time in half. As I am an old SOB and not getting any faster (read getting slow) this is an important boost to me.
I shot around 600-650 rounds in two days but they were “quality” rounds. I’ve been to much higher and much lower round count classes.
I was the only one to use a 1911 both days. One other fellow used a 1911 the first day. Mine ran perfectly the first day and most of the second until the mags and guns themselves had too much sand/dirt/etc. i did not clean them during the class. The class was held across the road from the beach so you can imagine the conditions. I literally dumped out over an inch + high pile of debris out of my mags when cleaning and the guns themselves were filthy.
On a rare occasion I shot to my ability, mostly I shot well to decent, and sometimes I just sucked. I have seem to have developed tremors in my hands when focusing or concentrating too hard. If I “just let it happen” I tended to do much better. Not sure what that’s all about..?
Definitely a worthwhile experience for me as it’s been six or so years since I was in a formal training class and I had definitely picked up some “training scars” or bad habits.
Take a look at the “Dirty Thirty Drill” (original and updated) drill on YouTube. Deceptively hard.

 

Sounds like a good time was had.

Thanks for the insight.

Pulling for LAV. 👍

 

Thank you for the write up. It sounds like he is still putting on a quality class. Some instructors seem to fade with time and let their reputation sell the class while they do little instruction for the attendees.

Nice tip on the slide release, have seen both methods taught and have seen people short stroke the gun or ride the slide and cause malfunctions with the sling shot method. Neither method is 100%, 100% of the time.

 

Absolutely on the 100%. L.A.V. reiterated that.
One other real highlight for me was the POA/POI difference when canting the pistol or not one handed at distance. Years ago I was taught and started to cant the weapon when shooting one handed. From 5yds in I don’t think it makes much difference. It does FOR ME beyond that.

 

Mike Harries (A Rabid Cooperite) also taught us canted pistol for weak hand shooting.

 

I’ve taken a variety of Vickers classes over the years. He has extensive firearms knowledge, a great understanding of 1911s, and has a direct, matter of fact teaching style.

 

@gunfighter45 What did LAV say on canting the pistol ? I took two of his courses but forgot.

 

Short answer: Canting the pistol shooting one handed beyond 5 yds has a significant impact on a lot of folks poa/poi.
Larry obviously has access to AA reports and TTP’s as his training is relevant.
Like a lot I believe that fundamentals are set in stone but their application isn’t.

 

I totally disagree. Tactics used in self defense have not changed over the years. They go something like this:
1. Identify the threat.
2. Pull your weapon.
3. Aim it.
4. Pull the trigger.
5. Disable the threat.

Pretty simple.

We're not talking about military tactics here. In the civilian world things happen so quickly that the above is all you will have time to do. We're not talking about taking on a squad of Taliban.

 

I totally disagree. Tactics used in self defense have not changed over the years. They go something like this:
1. Identify the threat.
2. Pull your weapon.
3. Aim it.
4. Pull the trigger.
5. Disable the threat.

what do you disagree with? Tactics evolve or archaic tactics could have negative results…

Also, what you listed is more OODA Loop and less tactics. Tactics would be where you’re carrying your pistol, how you draw it, how you grip it, etc. Those absolutely do change and evolve. As far as bad tactics being deadly or not, well if your carrying small of the back or in a shoulder holster and using a tea cup grip…that is less efficient then a bad guy carrying appendix and using thumbs forward. Just an example but it gets the point across.

 

In the civilian world, 4% of shootings take place at zero to two yards with minor physical contact occurring in a couple of those. 87% were between three and five yards. 4% were at five to seven yards, and another 4% were all the way out at 15 to 25 yards.

 

It’s too early for popcorn 😎 I think the old timers ( Jordan, Cooper, Cirillo, etc.) had most of this figured out long ago. In street encounters bread and butter skills are going to save the day, not some new King Fu grip drill taught by the latest greatest instructor. Some of them are selling change just to differentiate themselves from the pack.

 

It’s too early for popcorn [emoji41] I think the old timers ( Jordan, Cooper, Cirillo, etc.) had most of this figured out long ago. In street encounters bread and butter skills are going to save the day, not some new King Fu grip drill taught by the latest greatest instructor. Some of them are selling change just to differentiate themselves from the pack.

Cooper’s methods may still save the day, that doesn’t mean that tactics don’t evolve.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Ugh. The inbred knowledge on this forum is so pervasive at times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

FFS…this one-off black and white, yes/no BS is making my head hurt.

Some concepts become outmoded and don’t return. (Any other LE here remember the "rush to the back bedroom/bathroom" dope rescue days of warrant service?)

Some concepts circle back as technologies progress or situations change…or just go in cycles. (prime example is red dots on pistols)

Some concepts hold consistently true.

The trick is when to hold fast, when to roll with the change and when to call BS.

The instructor game is hard. The field is diluted so much at this point.

There are some things that no matter how far the instructor is out of the game that they can teach indefinitely given the right context...marksmanship, fundamentals, etc. Other things, I'll give you maybe...MAYBE 5 years of being out of the game/loop before things start to sour. Things that require constant reps like CQB; things that require updates like law/application of force; or things where tech moves fast like electro optics/night vision.

As with all things...context and nuance matter (devil in the details).

 

FFS…
Some concepts become outmoded and don’t return.

Some concepts circle back as technologies progress or situations change…or just go in

Some concepts hold consistently true.

The trick is when to hold fast, when to roll with the change and when to call BS.

The instructor game is hard. The field is diluted so much at this point.

There are some things that no matter how far the instructor is out of the game that they can teach indefinitely given the right context...marksmanship, fundamentals, etc. Other things, I'll give you maybe...MAYBE 5 years of being out of the game/loop before things start to sour. Things that require constant reps like CQB; things that require updates like law/application of force; or things where tech moves fast like electro optics/night vision.

As with all things...context and nuance matter (devil in the details).

Well put!